Lever Frame Assistance.

[mattrose]

Hi,

 

I am currently building a shunting layout but would like to control the points and signals from a lever frame if possible. The frame would require 22 levers, 6 of which controlling colour light signals.

 

What options are there out there for lever frame production? Are there options to buy fully built frames or does anyone offer building services?

 

Any help would be much much appreciated.

 

Thanks.

[Andrew1974]

You could try here?

 

http://modratec.com

[mattrose]

46 minutes ago, Andrew1974 said:

You could try here?

 

http://modratec.com

Just looking at modratec, they look good for interlocking, but I would ideally like a frame with the catches on the levers. The scalefour society frames look nice, however I don't quite have the ability to assemble a kit of that quality and get it right.

Hence, why I was looking to see if people offer a building services or if any products come pre-built. 

[johndon]

DCC Concepts do levers with the catches:

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-s-lever-single-pack/

[mattrose]

9 minutes ago, johndon said:

DCC Concepts do levers with the catches:

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-s-lever-single-pack/

I guess these can be linked electrically to 3 aspect signals and gaugemaster point motors? 

[johndon]

There are three different switches built in to the base.  Not sure how you'd operate a 3 aspect signal though as the switches are on/off...

[mattrose]

8 minutes ago, johndon said:

There are three different switches built in to the base.  Not sure how you'd operate a 3 aspect signal though as the switches are on/off...

I might have to look at either two aspect or use a rotary switch. 

However could it be worked with one lever to get red to yellow and then another to take yellow to green. However I assume that might be either impossible or need a lot of electrical work. 

[Junctionmad]

Surely there is no prototype of three aspect , ie MAS controlled by mechanical leverframes 

[Grovenor]

West Coast Main line has/had stretches of 4 aspect MAS controlled by lever frames, ie through Stockport. The lever only controls red to 'off', what aspect you get with 'off' depends on the signals ahead. Easy enough to do with a few cheap relays. But what does a "Shunting layout" want with 6 colour light signals? They are not used for shunting.

[The Stationmaster]

23 minutes ago, Junctionmad said:

Surely there is no prototype of three aspect , ie MAS controlled by mechanical leverframes 

I'm not sure what might still be around but not all that long ago they were numerous.

[mattrose]

The layout has a mainline which runs into a station and from there drops into the yard. There are two platform starter signals (2 or 3 aspect), a mainline siding (2 or 3 aspect which will have a shunt signal attached) and then there are a few ground position signals dotted around. There are then 16 sets of points. 

[mattrose]

I guess a timer could be used so once the lever is pulled the signal then works through a timing sequence to green. 

[Junctionmad]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm not sure what might still be around but not all that long ago they were numerous.

Really. I always thought MAS was associated with track circuit block and hence post dated mechanical levers 

[H2O]

10 hours ago, Grovenor said:

West Coast Main line has/had stretches of 4 aspect MAS controlled by lever frames, ie through Stockport. The lever only controls red to 'off', what aspect you get with 'off' depends on the signals ahead. 

Aspects also depend on track circuits and how signals and routes are set ahead. Quite a lot of interlocking may be required on a layout to get it working well.

For a new, built from almost scratch, lever operated, MAS (including 4 aspect) instalation look no further than Epping Ongar railway which has both mechanical and relay interlocking with full track occupancy.  All his is operated by mechanical lever frames at both North Weald and Ongar. Quite an advanced set up for a preserved line. They have examples of many mechanical and MAS signals including ground signals, theatre boxes, feathers, dot matrix etc.

[mattrose]

I think I am probably going to use Cobalt S Levers to control the points and see what others methods there are to use levers to operate 2 or three aspects and if not, just use a rotary switch.

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/05/2020 at 11:40, mattrose said:

The layout has a mainline which runs into a station and from there drops into the yard. There are two platform starter signals (2 or 3 aspect), a mainline siding (2 or 3 aspect which will have a shunt signal attached) and then there are a few ground position signals dotted around. There are then 16 sets of points. 

Could you post a plan because from this it sounds as if all you have is a passenger running line (or lines - two platforms) and a siding connection into the yard,  If that is correct there would only be the signals for that, all the yard pints woud be worked by hand levers and apart from the exit to teh running line there would be no signals in the yard.

 

Have a look at this link/downlaod to see how it might be done and click on the link with a grey background  in the left hand column for Balloch etc (and note the AX numbered signals which were of course operated by a lever frame) -

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/ArchiveSignals/brscot.php

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[mattrose]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Could you post a plan because from this it sounds as if all you have is a passenger running line (or lines - two platforms) and a siding connection into the yard,  If that is correct there would only be the signals for that, all the yard pints woud be worked by hand levers and apart from the exit to teh running line there would be no signals in the yard.

 

Have a look at this link/downlaod to see how it might be done and click on the link with a grey background  in the left hand column for Balloch etc (and note the AX numbered signals which were of course operated by a lever frame) -

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/ArchiveSignals/brscot.php

 

Below is one of the original layout plans which I inputted into the track software.  (The design has changed since and it isn't all straights or as compact as it looks, because I just wanted to make a quick drawing)

 

At the far end the two lines (on the far right) which join, run down into two platforms, with an option to go into a headshunt / loco holding siding. From there you can move along to one of two headshunts/sidings before dropping into the sheds and fuel road etc.

 

There would be three signals for the station platforms + loco sidings. And then a single signal before it splits at the far end, with one for coming back into the station as well.

There would also be a few ground signals to let you out the yard which has catch points fitted. But the majority of the yard is un-signalled, with signals to let you out of the yard, and running on the mainline.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

As I see it there are two running routes from the 'arrival' signal (one to each platform plus perhaps a subsidiary route to each platform plus a subsidiary route to the headshunt.   Depending on Regional practice for lever frame alterations that would be a maximum of 5 levers and a. minimum of 2.   For departure from the platform, again there could be variation in Regional practice but basically one lever for the main aspect and one for the subsidiary which makes another 4 levers, and 1 lever for a GPL reading from the headshunt/holding siding.

 

Doing it on a minimal basis there would be another GPL to come back from the headshunt next to the running line and another to come back from the departure running line giving a total of 3 GPLs.  The running lines and connections thereto , make a minimum of 4 levers needed to work points.  So far that gives a potential maximum of 5 + 3 + 4 = 12 levers.

 

If you then added another box worked point end in the headshunt next to the departure line that adds a second lever work a point (= crossover) and at the very most 2 additional GPLs = plus 3 more levers making a maximum of 15 - those additional three depend entirely on how you see that headshunt siding next to the departure line being worked.  Even if I add the other possible point ends involved in making the two headshunts full 'box worked it only adds one more lever so an absolute maximum of 16.

[Dagworth]

Jumping in onto this topic, I'm looking for a lever frame with electrical locking such that levers can not be moved until an electrical release is provided. I know the Modratec range have this capability but I would prefer something that feels more like a real lever with a latch. Probably looking at somewhere between 12 and 18 levers.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Andi

[beast66606]

19 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

Really. I always thought MAS was associated with track circuit block and hence post dated mechanical levers 

 

Liverpool has only recently lost Halton Junction, Runcorn, Allerton and Speke Junctionto Manchester ROC, all previously controlled colour lights, one via a Standard Frame, one via an REC frame and two via LNWR frames.

 

Crewe to Liverpool, Weaver Junction aside, was all controlled from (electro) mechanical boxes when it went to MAS in the 1960s, over the years the boxes were slowly abolished as other boxes took on more responsibility, now only Winsford and Crewe Coal Yard remain, Winsford being half levers and a panel.

 

MAS is simply multiple aspect signalling and has no direct relation to the control method or even the number of aspects which could be 2, 3, 4 or even 5

 

[Grovenor]

4 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Jumping in onto this topic, I'm looking for a lever frame with electrical locking such that levers can not be moved until an electrical release is provided. I know the Modratec range have this capability but I would prefer something that feels more like a real lever with a latch. Probably looking at somewhere between 12 and 18 levers.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Andi

Depends on how much work you are prepared to do, most etched frames such as the Scalefour Society one can be adapted to use Servos as electric locks. We have at least one member in MERG who has done that. I am not aware of anything that can just be used as it comes.

[Junctionmad]

On 25/05/2020 at 21:02, Grovenor said:

Depends on how much work you are prepared to do, most etched frames such as the Scalefour Society one can be adapted to use Servos as electric locks. We have at least one member in MERG who has done that. I am not aware of anything that can just be used as it comes.

I built these ( the scalefour ones . MK1 & Mk2)  , they are not easily modified to some form of electrically driven Locking operation . I abandoned using them and developed by own that are explicitly designed for electrical operation and controlled . They are  3Dprinted with 4mm aluminium levers. Pull plates can be fitted as the levers are large ( 14mm centres for the purposes of indicating scale ) 

 

The levers are both capable of being locked normal or reverse and can also be moved by the servos ( to facilitate  dual panels or where layout automation is also used ) 

 

The bicolour led on each lever can be used to indicate the locked status , or errors in lever positioning where  mechanical locking isnt  desired . Im currently developing the PCB board that all this sits on and the control hardware and software 

 

 

There is a little video showing the operation  YouTube video - Leverframe

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Junctionmad