GWR coach formation pre the "B" sets

[bordercollie]

Hi

I have found information in relation to GWR coach formations for branch lines after the introduction of the "B" sets in the early 30's. However, I would like to know what was used prior to this eg was the train accommodation the same as the "B" sets but using older stock eg clerestories or 4 or 6 wheeled stock. The article I have read re: Cornwall says the "B" sets had 2 first class and 10 or 12 third class compartments. So would it be safe to assume that trains pre 30's would have had the same or similar accommodatioin?

[Miss Prism]

The first elliptical-roof non-corridor brake composite was the E116 introduced in 1924. The 50' 3-arc roof E40 dates back to 1895. Here's Mike Wiltshire's E40 set (from Worsley Works etches):

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/692630962_E40Worsleylr.jpg.899915281787777c041f4e9509b3cf00.jpg

 

and here is the etch:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69664-a-nod-to-brent-fun-friendly-frivolity-and-happy-days-in-the-south-hams-1947/&do=findComment&comment=3153029

 

E40 pairs worked the Kingsbridge and St Ives branches.

 

54 minutes ago, bordercollie said:

The article I have read re: Cornwall says the "B" sets had 2 first class and 10 or 12 third class compartments. So would it be safe to assume that trains pre 30's would have had the same or similar accommodatioin?

 

True for E40 and E116, but not true for clerestory or 4-wheel equivalents, depending on your meaning of 'similar'.

 

[Ian Smith]

In Stephen Williams' "Great Western Branch Line Modelling (Part 2)", branch and local coach working is discussed in some detail and there is a table of "Standard" coach formations for 1911, 1922 & 1930 with various Set Formations.  For example the standard (what we have come to know) B Set formation in 1930 is a pair of Brake Composites, however a B Set in 1911 comprised a Van, Third, Compo, Compo, Third, Van (it can be assumed that 4 or 6 wheel stock made up this formation), this same formation by 1922 is referred to as an M Set (6 Wheel), a corresponding W Set (4 Wheel) being made up of Van Third, Third, Compo, Van Third in 1922.

 

I am in the process of putting together an early B Set for my 2FS Modbury, the first half of which can be seen below (I have since added another Compo (without Clerestory roof)) and have a further All Third nearing completion.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Ian

Edited May 24, 2020 by Ian Smith

[drduncan]

John Lewis did a series of articles on local train formations in GWRJ.  As memory serves it concentrated on Bristol, London and Birmingham divisions as I think that’s what he had surviving material for.  If any one has a pre 1914 coach working programme for Devon and  Cornwall to complement the Through coach programmes held at Kew do please share it!

DrDuncan

[drduncan]

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_12/692630962_E40Worsleylr.jpg.899915281787777c041f4e9509b3cf00.jpg
296.54 kB · 0 downloads

 

E40 pairs worked the Kingsbridge and St Ives branches

 

I’ve seen an image credited as Newquay with a train of two E40s with a 6w clerestory composite between them, loco was a Metro.  I think the picture was in one of the Williams modelling GW branches books.

DrDuncan

[Miss Prism]

Or maybe on the Falmouth branch?  Here's an E40 pair sandwiching a arc-roof 6-wheeler at Carbis Bay.

 

[melmoth]

Surely Carbis Bay is on the St Ives branch?

[Miss Prism]

Yes. It is possible the same set did the rounds of some west country branches before the E116s hit town.

 

Here's an E40 pair at St Ives (in 1928, much later than the Carbis Bay pic):

 

 

[57xx]

I think Jon was pointing out your post could be read as implying Carbis Bay was on the Falmouth branch, whilst it is actually on the St Ives branch.

[Paul H Vigor]

17 hours ago, bordercollie said:

Hi

I have found information in relation to GWR coach formations for branch lines after the introduction of the "B" sets in the early 30's. However, I would like to know what was used prior to this eg was the train accommodation the same as the "B" sets but using older stock eg clerestories or 4 or 6 wheeled stock. The article I have read re: Cornwall says the "B" sets had 2 first class and 10 or 12 third class compartments. So would it be safe to assume that trains pre 30's would have had the same or similar accommodatioin?

And, alas, no toilets! I believe on longer branches a B-set might be strengthened by the addition of a lavatory-fitted corridor coach?

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Or maybe on the Falmouth branch?  Here's an E40 pair sandwiching a arc-roof 6-wheeler at Carbis Bay.

 

 

Just pointing out that the centre carriage is another composite, perhaps U16 going by lack of droplights in the centre luggage compartment doors.

[melmoth]

12 hours ago, 57xx said:

I think Jon was pointing out your post could be read as implying Carbis Bay was on the Falmouth branch, whilst it is actually on the St Ives branch.

 

Yes, I am an easily confused fool.

[57xx]

2 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

Yes, I am an easily confused fool.

 

Same as me then, I read it the same way.

[bordercollie]

Thanks for replies. I had read John Lewis' article in GWRJ. I wasn't sure if the train formation designations could be transposed to Cornwall. The use of E40 etches seems to be a good solution. I really had a predisposition towards clerestories but the kits seen in the Mike Wiltshire post look excellent, I suppose I can mix up clerestory and  earlier non-clerestory carriages as per St Ives photograph

I  am also looking for coach working programmes but the document for local trains

Best wishes 

[wagonman]

The various divisions seemed to have used different designations for the various coach rakes. For instance, what Ian Smith describes as a B-set in Bristol (c1918 and presumably earlier too) was a K-set. Their B-sets were made up of a close coupled trio B/3rd+Compo+3rd (usually T47, U4 and S9 as modelled by Ratio) with a loose B/3rd to round it off. The basic set could have strengtheners added, and the odd swinger too.