Track for UK 3.5 mm scale

[autocoach]

For the last year I have been modeling Southern Pacific pretty much exclusively but still buy UK products that I have long fancied. So I got the new Hornby RTR LSWR/SR Class 1543 brake van (sadly miss-colored) when they came out last year.  The photo shows it running on the station/freight house siding of my in early development layout  on Peco Code 70 track with a minor alteration in the lettering to fit the environment.

I have not re-wheeled it so it has stock RTR Hornby wheels.  It runs absolutely fabulous(ly) on both this code 70 and some Micro-Engineering Code 70.  No evidence of riding on the plastic track fixing (aka spike heads.)

 

Apologies for the detritus in the photo but have not cleaned up the area where I am experimenting with a craft store 2 mm thick foam material overlay as a base ground cover to bring the ground up to tie top level for ballasting. The Peco sleepers/ties are 2 mm thick.

[Andy Reichert]

On 01/08/2020 at 09:34, autocoach said:

For the last year I have been modeling Southern Pacific pretty much exclusively but still buy UK products that I have long fancied. So I got the new Hornby RTR LSWR/SR Class 1543 brake van (sadly miss-colored) when they came out last year.  The photo shows it running on the station/freight house siding of my in early development layout  on Peco Code 70 track with a minor alteration in the lettering to fit the environment.

 

I have not re-wheeled it so it has stock RTR Hornby wheels.  It runs absolutely fabulous(ly) on both this code 70 and some Micro-Engineering Code 70.  No evidence of riding on the plastic track fixing (aka spike heads.)

 

Apologies for the detritus in the photo but have not cleaned up the area where I am experimenting with a craft store 2 mm thick foam material overlay as a base ground cover to bring the ground up to tie top level for ballasting. The Peco sleepers/ties are 2 mm thick.

 

I was a member of the Walnut Creek MR Club for while when I was working and living in Berkeley. Are you involved at all?

 

Andy

[autocoach]

Andy
Alas, the WC MR Club has shown little interest in the developments in  model railroading over the last 20 years.  Unfortunately they would have to completely rip out their custom City Park building built in layout to upgrade it from remote fixed cab toggle switch block wiring (I guess sort of a CTC)  to even go to DCC,  Maybe when true easy to install and run dead rail comes, they can just cut all the wires. As it is not designed for walk around operations and has no focus other than a place to run trains round and round in cutesy scenery it will take a thorough change of mindset for the members.  it's just not my style of modeling.

 

I have given up even attending their open house events. 

 

The Carquinez club in Crockett has a much better layout based on the SP Western and Sierra  operations and I visit occasionally.  But I am pretty much a lone wolf modeler that that doesn't fit in with clubs. 

 

The LSWR diagram 1543 brake van needs to be repainted into a correct much darker Southern Railway service brown.  I just took advantage of removing the leg of the R making a P would make it into a funny 4 wheel "caboose" for my Port Costa layout without painting.

Edited August 6, 2020 by autocoach

[Andy Reichert]

 

I did just recently knock up an accurate  3.5 mm scale UK #6 turnout timbering template as an exercise. That was based on a Scalefour Society 18.83 gauge drawing, so it should be accurately UK prototypical. Then I superimposed my US HO geometry jig rail slots for adding code 70 FB rail. But It looks as though the rail geometry also needs to be adjusted to the UK version before I go further. However,  an adjusted, easy to build jig for a truly to scale FB version looks like an easy project to make available.

 

Even in 3.5 mm scale,  the turnout timbers are very obviously much larger than the US cousin, as well as the greater spacing.  Which is not what some other prominent RM Web track builders told me to expect. So I'm definitely considering it as a pretty good solution for more realistic UK "00" FB track, given that everything is actually in scale proportion for the 16.5 mm narrowed track gauge. And an fine scale "00-P" version is just a matter of using a different P4 wheel compatible common crossing part and moving the check rails out.

 

If any one has a similar timbering diagram for the equivalent Old and new PECO UK turnouts, it would interesting to compare them side by side.

 

Andy

 

[HSB]

Peco point templates can be downloaded from their website.

[47137]

I have some Ray Ripon templates for EM. These are ancient - 1950s or 60s I will guess. I can scan these and send them to anyone who is interested.

 

Templot has an H0 setting and can create most any plan you like if you can find someone who can use it with enough proficiency.

 

- Richard.

[Andy Reichert]

9 minutes ago, 47137 said:

I have some Ray Ripon templates for EM. These are ancient - 1950s or 60s I will guess. I can scan these and send them to anyone who is interested.

 

Templot has an H0 setting and can create most any plan you like if you can find someone who can use it with enough proficiency.

 

- Richard.

 

Unfortunately, EM is a narrowed gauge, so you can't scale the timbers and the gauge down together and get a true 3.5 scale matching turnout length. That's why I used a P4 drawing sacle at 7/8. . The P4 digest and the set of C&L P4 templates contain all the major turnouts and crossing sizes, Templot might be needed for any flowing curve situations. Although all the turnout kits I've made to date are curvable anyway.

 

Andy

[Andy Reichert]

On 01/08/2020 at 09:34, autocoach said:

For the last year I have been modeling Southern Pacific pretty much exclusively but still buy UK products that I have long fancied. So I got the new Hornby RTR LSWR/SR Class 1543 brake van (sadly miss-colored) when they came out last year.  The photo shows it running on the station/freight house siding of my in early development layout  on Peco Code 70 track with a minor alteration in the lettering to fit the environment.

I have not re-wheeled it so it has stock RTR Hornby wheels.  It runs absolutely fabulous(ly) on both this code 70 and some Micro-Engineering Code 70.  No evidence of riding on the plastic track fixing (aka spike heads.)

 

Apologies for the detritus in the photo but have not cleaned up the area where I am experimenting with a craft store 2 mm thick foam material overlay as a base ground cover to bring the ground up to tie top level for ballasting. The Peco sleepers/ties are 2 mm thick.

 

Sadly, the buffers should go too. That's one of the things I miss modelling US railroads.  That's why I'm still running both on the same trackwork.

 

Andy

 

Andy

[47137]

1 hour ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

Unfortunately, EM is a narrowed gauge, so you can't scale the timbers and the gauge down together and get a true 3.5 scale matching turnout length. That's why I used a P4 drawing sacle at 7/8. . The P4 digest and the set of C&L P4 templates contain all the major turnouts and crossing sizes, Templot might be needed for any flowing curve situations. Although all the turnout kits I've made to date are curvable anyway.

 

Andy

 

I respectfully suggest, you can scale an EM plan down and get something you can build a turnout on. Let's face it, if you begin construction with one stock rail and set it a quarter of a millimetre outside the location marked on the plan, no-one will notice the discrepancy.

 

- Richard.

[martin_wynne]

11 hours ago, 47137 said:

Templot has an H0 setting and can create most any plan you like if you can find someone who can use it with enough proficiency.

 

 

Hi Richard,

 

1. If you want a 3.5mm/ft scale template of UK bullhead railway track, Templot just needs a couple of clicks to create and print a template.

 

See this video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=hdIcVN9vvksNd4kwp6LaSw2

 

When it stops after 13 seconds to select the gauge, just click 16.5 H0-NMRA. Then continue as shown.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

2. Changing to USA-style railway track is more involved to make all the settings, but there are some sample ready-made template files to download and print at:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1335&forum_id=10

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[47137]

I always thought Templot was a program needing to be taught rather than learned, and Martin's video is very helpful to me.

 

- Richard.

[Andy Reichert]

19 hours ago, 47137 said:

 

I respectfully suggest, you can scale an EM plan down and get something you can build a turnout on. Let's face it, if you begin construction with one stock rail and set it a quarter of a millimetre outside the location marked on the plan, no-one will notice the discrepancy.

 

- Richard.

 

Modelled discrepancies are noticed differently by different people. Just do on your layout what matters to you. Apparently many people happily use the same UK PECO Streamline track unmodified.for either UK 00 or US HO.

 

I think you have to scale an EM template down by 18.2:16.5 instead of 8:7, or you'll end up with a too narrowed track gauge of 15.93 mm.

 

Andy

[Andy Reichert]

10 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Richard,

 

1. If you want a 3.5mm/ft scale template of UK bullhead railway track, Templot just needs a couple of clicks to create and print a template.

 

See this video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=hdIcVN9vvksNd4kwp6LaSw2

 

When it stops after 13 seconds to select the gauge, just click 16.5 H0-NMRA. Then continue as shown.

 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

2. Changing to USA-style railway track is more involved to make all the settings, but there are some sample ready-made template files to download and print at:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1335&forum_id=10

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the two turnouts look as though they have curved crossings (frogs) and possibly even sets of different width sleepers (ties).

 

Andy

[martin_wynne]

55 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the two turnouts look as though they have curved crossings (frogs) and possibly even sets of different width sleepers (ties).

 

 

Hi Andy,

 

Those sample turnouts are labelled "USA-style", i.e. illustrative of customized templates in Templot, rather than of any specific prototype. Almost any prototype can be replicated by making the appropriate settings (assuming the prototype data is available).

 

In this case the ties are all the same width (9"), but don't need to be, at a constant spacing, but don't need to be.

 

If you have a turnout having a straight-over-straight V-crossing (frog) inserted in a curved running line, that could be created using partial templates, or by inserting a zero-length transition curve at the crossing entry position or wing rail front joint.

 

More about regular and curviform V-crossings in Templot, and how to create other options, such as a straight exit in a curved turnout, in this video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=pu2F-wveux5-EWGYuqPd3g2

 

p.s. Templot is free for anyone to use.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

37 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Andy,

 

Those sample turnouts are labelled "USA-style", i.e. illustrative of customized templates in Templot, rather than of any specific prototype. Almost any prototype can be replicated by making the appropriate settings (assuming the prototype data is available).

 

In this case the ties are all the same width (9"), but don't need to be, at a constant spacing, but don't need to be.

 

If you have a turnout having a straight-over-straight V-crossing (frog) inserted in a curved running line, that could be created using partial templates, or by inserting a zero-length transition curve at the crossing entry position or wing rail front joint.

 

More about regular and curviform V-crossings in Templot, and how to create other options, such as a straight exit in a curved turnout, in this video:

 

 https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=pu2F-wveux5-EWGYuqPd3g2

 

p.s. Templot is free for anyone to use.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Ironically, I noticed the very slight discrepancy because I'm probably more familiar with US track than the typical UK modeller. 

 

I think it's fair to say in reply that 16.5 mm 00 track can really only be UK-style. The nice thing about a UK 3.5 mm scale is that you can actually build reasonably accurate, and hence at least proportionally more realistic, UK track if you wish. 

 

Andy

 

 

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Andy Reichert said:

I noticed the very slight discrepancy

 

 

Discrepancy?

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

16 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Discrepancy?

 

Martin.

 

The apparent continuing curvature of the stock rail(s) through the normally (US standardized) straight frog section.

[martin_wynne]

25 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

The apparent continuing curvature of the stock rail(s) through the normally (US standardized) straight frog section.

 

It's not a discrepancy, I intended it to be that way. It's the default setting in Templot, corresponding to most UK practice when the main-road exit is also curved.

 

I can't believe US railroad engineers insert short bits of straight track into a ruling curve on a fast running line?

 

If that's what you want it's easy enough to do in Templot, but rather you than me to run over it at speed:

 

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

It's not a discrepancy, I intended it to be that way. It's the default setting in Templot, corresponding to most UK practice when the main-road exit is also curved.

 

I can't believe US railroad engineers insert short bits of straight track into a ruling curve on a fast running line?

 

If that's what you want it's easy enough to do in Templot, but rather you than me to run over it at speed:

 

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Actually they do, as per the picture above.

 

But in any case there are no high speed diverging routes on prototype US turnouts of the traditional design.  Instead, the slow speed restrictions for diverging routes are very severe. US practice is quite different from the UK.

 

There aren't any using bullhead rail either. So that default really isn't appropriate either..

 

Andy

 

 

[martin_wynne]

55 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

But in any case there are no high speed diverging routes on prototype US turnouts of the traditional design.  Instead, the slow speed restrictions for diverging routes are very severe. US practice is quite different from the UK.

 

There aren't any using bullhead rail either. So that default really isn't appropriate either..

 

 

Hi Andy,

 

I was referring to a straight section in the main route. Diverging routes in the UK are also usually subject to a speed restriction.

 

By definition you can have only one default. In Templot it is to follow UK REA bullhead practice.

 

But it's easy to change from the default to something else. Templot is a tool a tool for track builders to design whatever they want, not a library of finished designs.

 

See this video:

 

https://flashbackconnect.com/Movie.aspx?id=pu2F-wveux5-EWGYuqPd3g2

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andy Reichert]

https://goo.gl/maps/abJBfbHcoMp2J5iX8

 

The check rail picture is of the main route of a curved turnout. On the California UP/Amtrak West Coast Main Line at the north border of Atascadero, California. Amtrak Superliner Los Angeles-Seattle service.

 

The LH track is the passing siding.