Engines on Leeds-London trains, Late 50s/60s

[1165Valour]

Does anyone know what engines worked the Leeds-London trains on the Midland Main Line in the late 50s/60s timeframe? Also, what sheds did they tend to be stabled at?

[Michael Edge]

Mostly Scots and Jubilees until replaced by Peaks in the 1960s. They would mainly be from Holbeck, Derby and Cricklewood sheds.

[Poor Old Bruce]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Mostly Scots and Jubilees until replaced by Peaks in the 1960s. They would mainly be from Holbeck, Derby and Cricklewood sheds.

 

I would suggest Kentish Town rather than Cricklewood.

[Michael Edge]

That's what I meant, a bit of memory fade there, Leicester shed was probably involved as well.

[1165Valour]

Thanks, any chance a stray Patriot could work its way over there?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Holbeck and Kentish Town for London - Leeds. For the Manchester trains you'd include Trafford Park in the mix too. 

Other sheds with some Jubilees were Millhouses (Sheff), Derby and Nottm. Leicester didn't really feature at all.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Some Patriots around, especially towards late 50's early 60's. More usual on cross-country NE/SW trains, though nothing to stop them on London turns. 

[Norton961]

Don’t forget that Barrow Rd Jubilees and Patriots worked from Bristol, through Birmingham, Derby and to Leeds. The Barrow Rd Jubilees were in the main ( leaving a couple ) transferred away to Shrewsbury in October 1961 and The Patriots were withdrawn around the same time. During the bad winter of 1962 into 1963 some re built Scots were borrowed from various sheds to cover for the non availability of Peaks.

 

David

[Poor Old Bruce]

6 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

That's what I meant, a bit of memory fade there, Leicester shed was probably involved as well.

 

Plus Millhouses.

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Leicester didn't really feature at all.

 

In Midland days, Leicester was the usual engine-changing point for London-Leeds trains (excepting those running via Nottingham) but with double-manning. more water troughs, and 4-6-0s, one can see that it would drop out of the picture.

[Michael Edge]

Not Millhouses, not much engine changing in Sheffield. Patriots only Derby - Manchester as I remember.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Patriots much more likely on NE/SW trains, than the Manchester's. Also regular on the daily Nottm - Bristol train. Manchester's were Jubilees, plus a few Trafford Park Britannias towards the end. No express classes allocated to Leicester throughout the BR period.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Peter Kazmierczak

[1165Valour]

A very big thank you to all who have answered so far! 

[pH]

On 25/05/2020 at 14:54, Peter Kazmierczak said:

No express classes allocated to Leicester throughout the BR period.

According to the BRDatabase site, there were a few Jubilees there 1960-61.

[30851]

 

A possible book for you would be Midland Main Lines which covers the Midland main lines from 1957 to 1963. It also includes a lot of what the author observed at the time (although these are mostly around Derby).

 

 

Rob

[Leander]

I regret I've only just found this thread but I may be able to flesh out some of the earlier posts. I've been involved in researching engine workings for John Elliott (Leeds City North) and John Brighton (Millhouses - not on RMWeb). Using the Midland Railway Society's Booklet 'BR Passenger Engine Workings Derby District Winter Timetable 1959/60' on Mondays to Fridays, and cross checking with relevant public timetable, I've been able to compile a table (attached) Engines on Leeds-London trains; Winter Timetable 1959-1960.xlsxshowing which shed provided motive power for each train, the loco type employed and the Engine Diagram Number concerned in each case.

 

As already stated, Kentish Town (14B) and Holbeck (55A) dominated these workings, the former mainly with Rebuilt Scots, the latter with Jubilees. Millhouses (41C) also had a minor role with the Leeds trains but came more into their own with services to and from Sheffield. Of interest is the appearance of a Trafford Park (9E) Britannia working a three day cyclic diagram, thus guaranteeing three different locos over three consecutive days. Where two Turn Numbers are shown, e.g. 55A/7 or 8, again these are multi-day diagrams involving more than one loco.

 

Information relating to a slightly earlier period in time may be found in 'Operation Midland' by P Webb and W Beckett and published by Xpress Publishing.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Leander
Addition

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Leander said:

As already stated, Kentish Town and Holbeck dominated these workings, the former mainly with Rebuilt Scots, the latter with Jubilees. 

 

The photograph posted earlier - no, on another thread - showed the up and down Thames-Clyde side by side at Leeds, with a Jubilee on the up train and a rebuilt Royal Scot on the down. Did Holbeck have an allocation of Royal Scots used exclusively north of Leeds, or did these engines come from Carlisle or Polmadie?

[Joseph_Pestell]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The photograph posted earlier - no, on another thread - showed the up and down Thames-Clyde side by side at Leeds, with a Jubilee on the up train and a rebuilt Royal Scot on the down. Did Holbeck have an allocation of Royal Scots used exclusively north of Leeds, or did these engines come from Carlisle or Polmadie?

I think that some rebuilt Scots were based at Holbeck. My copy of ABC is in storage at the moment.

[Joseph_Pestell]

43 minutes ago, Leander said:

I regret I've only just found this thread but I may be able to flesh out some of the earlier posts. I've been involved in researching engine workings for John Elliott (Leeds City North) and John Brighton (Millhouses - not on RMWeb). Using the Midland Railway Society's Booklet 'BR Passenger Engine Workings Derby District Winter Timetable 1959/60' on Mondays to Fridays, and cross checking with relevant public timetable, I've been able to compile a table (attached) Engines on Leeds-London trains; Winter Timetable 1959-1960.xlsxshowing which shed provided motive power for each train, the loco type employed and the Engine Diagram Number concerned in each case.

 

As already stated, Kentish Town and Holbeck dominated these workings, the former mainly with Rebuilt Scots, the latter with Jubilees. Of interest is the appearance of a Trafford Park Britannia working a three day cyclic diagram, thus guaranteeing three different locos over three consecutive days. Where two Turn Numbers are shown, e.g. 55A/7 or 8, again these are multi-day diagrams involving more than one loco.

 

Sorry if I am being dim about understanding which leg of the journey was hauled by a Britannia. But useful for me to know. South of Leeds or north of Leeds?

[jonny777]

On 01/06/2020 at 19:06, pH said:

According to the BRDatabase site, there were a few Jubilees there 1960-61.

 

I have spotting notes from a visit to Leicester shed in March 1960, and listed among the locos that day were 45532, 45615, 45616, and 46118. 

 

 

[Leander]

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The photograph posted earlier - no, on another thread - showed the up and down Thames-Clyde side by side at Leeds, with a Jubilee on the up train and a rebuilt Royal Scot on the down. Did Holbeck have an allocation of Royal Scots used exclusively north of Leeds, or did these engines come from Carlisle or Polmadie?

I'm familiar with the photo concerned. Holbeck had an allocation of Rebuilt Scots from the conversion of the very first loco, 46103. An allocation of at least half a dozen locos was maintained and the depot had workings (turns) for five of them. The workings from Leeds to Scotland  were rostered solely to Holbeck locos. These totalled five per day (with additions on Summer Saturdays), the two daytime trains and two overnight sleeping car trains (in each direction) plus the Leeds-Glasgow (St Enoch) daily trains.

 

The locos on the Glasgow turns worked straight through but those on the two Edinburgh trains changed locos in Carlisle, with a Scottish Region Pacific taking over for the run over the Waverley Route, the Holbeck locos being serviced on Kingmoor depot. All this changed with the introduction of the Peaks with the Holbeck locos working straight through to both destinations.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Leander

[Leander]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Sorry if I am being dim about understanding which leg of the journey was hauled by a Britannia. But useful for me to know. South of Leeds or north of Leeds?

Not at all, I should have made it more clear. All these workings refer to south of Leeds.

 

The 55A Britannias 70043, 70053 and 70054 took a share of the five workings north of Leeds alongside the influx of A3 Pacifics, when the Scots fell from favour in the mid to late 1950s.

[pH]

55 minutes ago, Leander said:

The workings from Leeds to Scotland  were rostered solely to Carlisle locos.

Did you mean ‘Holbeck’ instead of ‘Carlisle’?

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 hours ago, Leander said:

Not at all, I should have made it more clear. All these workings refer to south of Leeds.

 

The 55A Britannias 70043, 70053 and 70054 took a share of the five workings north of Leeds alongside the influx of A3 Pacifics, when the Scots fell from favour in the mid to late 1950s.

 

Excellent! I had planned on having at least one Britannia and this justifies it.

 

A3 appeals but would be "Rule One" in the context of my assumption that, if the West Riding Lines had been built, they would have stayed in the LMR rather than being placed in the NE region.

[Leander]

11 hours ago, pH said:

Did you mean ‘Holbeck’ instead of ‘Carlisle’?

I did. I've amended that post accordingly. Sorry about that.