Lamps on tender engines.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I know this might seem like an odd question, But when a tender engine was pulling a train engine first did they also have lamps on the back of the tender. Or did they just swap the lamps from the front to the rear if it ran tender first.

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I know this might seem like an odd question, But when a tender engine was pulling a train engine first did they also have lamps on the back of the tender. Or did they just swap the lamps from the front to the rear if it ran tender first.

 

The lamps would be swapped. A loco pulling a train would only ever have lamps at the leading end with lamp then displayed at the end of the complete train, signifying to a signaller that the train is complete when passing them.

 

Lamps would only be carried on both ends of a loco for a light loco move, signifying that it makes up the entire train.

Roy

Edited May 26, 2020 by Roy Langridge
Clarity

[Siberian Snooper]

I believe that pilot engines within station limits had a red and white lamp at both ends, on the buffer beams.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Siberian Snooper

[The Johnster]

Or a pilot loco within station limits or a marshalling or goods yard, 4 lamps in all one white and one red on the outer buffer beam brackets  Don’t ask me which went right and which left because I‘ve forgotten.  Locos moving around loco depots, or multiple units within the confines of their depots do not need to carry lamps, one of the reasons these are very dangerous places to be walking around in.  Carriage shed pilots carry the red/white both ends. 
 

A train on a running line should display the correct head lamps and a red tail lamp at the rear; this is one of the most common mistakes on exhibition layouts.  Locos with red tail lamps blazing haul trains, trains have tail lamps fitted both ends, multiple units coupled together show tail lamps on the leading set, but it’s all right because you can’t see them in the glare of the trailing set...

 

A train not showing a tail lamp on the trailing vehicle must be assumed to be incomplete snd the signalman will stop all traffic immediately until the missing portion is found in case it has derailed.  A lamp between the vehicles means that the train has been run into by a runaway portion of another one, which also means all stop until it is located, also in case it has derailed.  Automatic brakes and track circuits make this less likely, but the precaution is still required.  In the early days of ‘loose coupled’ trains and weaker couplings, it was a serious problem. 
 

So, irrespective of light engine or train, lamp(s) on the leading end and a red lamp on the trailing end ONLY.  Brake vans on unfitted or part fitted trains carry side lamps in addition to the tail lamp, and these have two lenses.  They are displayed on each side of the van and show a white light forward, so that the driver or fireman can look back to confirm that the train is complete.  
 

These lamps have sliding removable red shades so that they can show either a red or white light to the rear.  The guard removes the shade nearest to an adjacent running line to indicate to a driver overtaking him that he is not closing on a train on his own line and about to rear-end it.  This is done where trains are put into loops or refuge sidings, or reception/departure roads, or are running on relief, slow, or goods lines wherever trains may overtake on adjacent lines with faster line speeds, and also where a road in the opposite direction intervenes, as in for example common GW paired arrangement of up main/down main/up relief/down relief (or the other way around. But the principle of lamps only at the front and rear of the train is maintained.  
 

It's not an odd question at all, cypherman, you have asked something that is at the very core of they way trains are worked in the UK. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by The Johnster

[DCB]

The tail light indicates that the back of the train has passed a signal box so the signalman can give train out of section. Obviously then no other tail lights should be carried or the signalman might be deceived.   Yes I know about slip coaches, there is always the exception which proves the rule.

[Roy Langridge]

26 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Or a pilot loco within station limits or a marshalling or goods yard, 4 lamps in all one white and one red on the outer buffer beam brackets  Don’t ask me which went right and which left because I‘ve forgotten.  

 

If I recall correctly, the white was on the side nearest the running line, if one was present?

 

Roy

[JeremyC]

Re shunting locos.

From the 1950 rule book: Rule 123. "Engines employed exclusively in shunting at stations and yards must , after sunset or during fog or falling snow, carry one red and one white light, both at the front and rear, one over each buffer."

The rule doesn't state which side the white or red must be.

Edited May 26, 2020 by JeremyC

[The Johnster]

42 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

If I recall correctly, the white was on the side nearest the running line, if one was present?

 

Roy

You may be confusing this with brake van lamps.  A station pilot might, in the course of it’s work, end up on any road alongside any other road; it would be inconvenient not to mention dangerous to have loco crew up and down every 2 minutes changing lamps to present a white nearest to the running line.  The loco will spend much of it’s time flanked by running lines on both sides, on which high speed through traffic might be running!

[Roy Langridge]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

You may be confusing this with brake van lamps.  A station pilot might, in the course of it’s work, end up on any road alongside any other road; it would be inconvenient not to mention dangerous to have loco crew up and down every 2 minutes changing lamps to present a white nearest to the running line.  The loco will spend much of it’s time flanked by running lines on both sides, on which high speed through traffic might be running!

No, definitely shunting locos when working next to a running line, I was taught it many years ago. 

Will have to have a dig through my old notes. 

 

Roy

[The Johnster]

Maybe 08s; these had dual colour lamps switched from the cab. 

[Roy Langridge]

3 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Maybe 08s; these had dual colour lamps switched from the cab. 

A quick google did provide this: 

Although the 08s I have worked could not be switched from the cab, each individual light having to set by hand.  
 

Roy

 

[cypherman]

Hi all, 

Thank you for the info.

[31A]

On 26/05/2020 at 21:31, Roy Langridge said:

No, definitely shunting locos when working next to a running line, I was taught it many years ago. 

Will have to have a dig through my old notes. 

 

Roy

 

I have also read this, and understood it to be so that the driver of a train on an adjacent running line would see the pilot's white lamp before he saw the red one (or might not see the red at all if the pilot was coupled to vehicles) and hence would not mistake the red lamp to be a danger / stop signal.

 

Not quite sure how that worked when pilots could be working with running lines on either side, or changed sides during their work ....