Narrow gauge at Hurst Castle, Hampshire

[Paul H Vigor]

I have just discovered that Google Street View has gone 'off-road' - bike-cam or foot-cam?

 

It is now possible to take a tour around the outside of Hurst Castle in Hampshire and glimpse parts of the former military narrow gauge railway that served the fortification

[Hando]

Hi Paul;

At the minute there are plenty of Google street view images of Hurst Castle which include parts of the narrow gauge railway, including an aerial photo which was made with a drone, which is particularly useful for tracing the route of the old line.

 

Also - Google doesn't actually make the off-road street view themselves, but people with 360-degree-view multiple-lensed cameras do. Anyone can contribute imagery so long as you have that kind of camera. Because of this, some of the locations where the imagery is said to be on the map is not where it actually was taken on the 360 photos, since there are often errors with the GPS positioning by the camera. I recommend clicking on distant street view "blue dots" even if they aren't in the right spot as they could still give you useful photos. 

 

Hope that helped,

Alex

[009 micro modeller]

I actually loosely based my first 009 layout on this railway (even though it’s 18 inch gauge) so this is particularly interesting for me.

[TangoOscarMike]

When I was little I thought it would be marvellous to see steam engines running on those rails.

 

And actually I still do.

 

Paul, do you know anything about the working of this railway? I have a book (the book?) about the castle, but I can't put my hand on it, and I don't recall that it goes into much detail on this particular point.

 

I have always supposed that supplies and munitions were pulled by muscle power - beasts or men. Steam (I imagine) would be neither inappropriate nor anachronistic, but maybe more trouble than it was worth.

 

And diesel perhaps would be anachronistic, belonging to an era in which the castle's military significance was waning.

 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said:

When I was little I thought it would be marvellous to see steam engines running on those rails.

 

And actually I still do.

 

Paul, do you know anything about the working of this railway? I have a book (the book?) about the castle, but I can't put my hand on it, and I don't recall that it goes into much detail on this particular point.

 

I have always supposed that supplies and munitions were pulled by muscle power - beasts or men. Steam (I imagine) would be neither inappropriate nor anachronistic, but maybe more trouble than it was worth.

 

And diesel perhaps would be anachronistic, belonging to an era in which the castle's military significance was waning.

 

When I researched it for my layout I found that donkeys were used to haul the wagons. I can’t remember the source for this though. I seem to remember also reading about a separate railway along the causeway to a wider gauge although I would need to double check this.

[Paul H Vigor]

15 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said:

When I was little I thought it would be marvellous to see steam engines running on those rails.

 

And actually I still do.

 

Paul, do you know anything about the working of this railway? I have a book (the book?) about the castle, but I can't put my hand on it, and I don't recall that it goes into much detail on this particular point.

 

I have always supposed that supplies and munitions were pulled by muscle power - beasts or men. Steam (I imagine) would be neither inappropriate nor anachronistic, but maybe more trouble than it was worth.

 

And diesel perhaps would be anachronistic, belonging to an era in which the castle's military significance was waning.

 

Hi TangoOscarMike  As far as I know wagons were man-propelled - I guess there were plenty of idle gunners wombling about and NCOs looking for tasks to keep them busy!? The line was used to bring supplies into the castle and to move materials and munitions about inside. I have not come across any evidence for a tramway along the shingle bank from Milford - accept as part of a 009 model I had in mind back in the 1980s!

[IWCR]

The railway used to run onto a short pier near the lighthouse, when I was a child this still went into the sea and had decking, now the shingle is considerably beyond it.  There is a trolley in the castle on the track with shells on it. Certainly no indication of any sort of loco being used.  Ive never heard of anything along the spit itself, possibly a confusion here with Calshot Spit further along the Solent which had a steam hauled narrow gauge line serving the RAF Seaplane base.

 

Pete

[009 micro modeller]

9 minutes ago, IWCR said:

The railway used to run onto a short pier near the lighthouse, when I was a child this still went into the sea and had decking, now the shingle is considerably beyond it.  There is a trolley in the castle on the track with shells on it. Certainly no indication of any sort of loco being used.  Ive never heard of anything along the spit itself, possibly a confusion here with Calshot Spit further along the Solent which had a steam hauled narrow gauge line serving the RAF Seaplane base.

 

Pete

No confusion from me although since I can’t remember where I saw it I wonder if the source I read was confused or unreliable. I find it particularly unlikely that a different gauge would have been used along the spit.

[TangoOscarMike]

Several month later, I have found my Hurst Castle book: "Hurst Castle An Illustrated History" by Jude James. It had been "tidied away" by someone in this household......

 

On the topic of proposed (or, at least, contemplated) railways, we have the following, from around 1840:

 

Thomas Legh ..... wanted to establish a large coal depot on the spit and run a tram road along the whole length of the peninsula to connect with the mainland 'at Milford, Hordle and Keyhaven etc,'

 

Then there is a discussion of Legh's bitumen building-material project, followed by:

 

Arthur Watson ..... also mentioned Legh's scheme for a railway to convey the finished product to the mainland.

 

And this:

 

Mr Hignett ..... goes on to describe Legh as 'a very eccentric gentleman, and fancies he can make a Rail Road from a certain point at Hurst Beach, across the mud to Lymington or Keyhaven'.

 

And finally:

 

Legh ..... at once pursued the idea of his railway from Hurst across the marshes to Lymington. We should recall that the railway line from Southampton to London had only been opened in 1840 and there was not to be a link with Lymington until 1857 ..... The Admiralty, however, stepped in and scotched the idea in its infancy because in its view no bridge should be erected across the entrance to Keyhaven Lake...

 

I never knew it as Keyhaven Lake - it was always the River to me. But Google calls it a Lake.

 

From all of this, it sounds as though Legh was contemplating different routes at different times:

 

 

I suppose that Rule 1 applies to railway speculators just as it applies to railway modellers.

 

And then, for the real narrow gauge line we have the following:

 

In about 1895 the military constructed a narrow gauge (1 foot 8 1/2 inches) railway from the east pier into the castle. This greatly eased the supply of heavy materials into the fort. An additional, short tramway was constructed from the Camber [the bay at the end of the river] to the Castle Inn which facilitated the movement of beer and fuel from the boats to the inn. Remnants of this tramway remained until about 1975.

 

It's not clear, but since the Castle Inn was well to the north of the other buildings, and supplied from the river, I would guess that this tramway was not connected to the military line.

 

Modelling Possibilities?

 

A fun model of the real or hypothetical railways is likely to be pretty fantastical. Also, in 4mm scale, one would need 6m to accommodate the full length of the Palmerston fort. So how about this:

• A drastically reduced fort: The Tudor towers with smaller diameter and one less story, plus much smaller Palmerston wings (two or three guns only on each side).
• The lighthouse, inn and other buildings, close together and closer to the fort.
• All of this on a much smaller spit.
• A OO6.5 railway (courtesy of Narrow Planet, Busch and whoever else makes relevant items). The gauge is about right. This could follow a shrunken route based on the real military railway route, plus whatever extensions can be crammed in (and linked to the Castle Inn tramway).
• Either or both of Legh's possible routes (as I've imagined them) as standard gauge, OO9, OOn3 or 7' broad gauge (why not?). For people who like a tunnel leading to a fiddle yard, the spit could be shortened and Hordle cliffs brought much closer.

Since this is all pretty daft, why not give it a mild and tasteful steampunk flavour? A paddle-wheel ironclad moored at the east pier, an airship tethered to the Tudor fort....

 

Right. You can all hand your homework in on Monday morning, or before.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by TangoOscarMike

[009 micro modeller]

On 13/11/2020 at 19:40, TangoOscarMike said:

A fun model of the real or hypothetical railways is likely to be pretty fantastical.

 

My layout, very loosely based on Hurst Castle, was built in 009 (not right for 18” gauge, but not totally implausible given the 2’ gauge military line at Calshot nearby, or the more modern 2’ 6” gauge Dean Hill line). I did model a couple of the special Hurst Castle wagons used to transport shells - they looked good but were probably over-scale. I also used a continuous run on a 4’ x 2’ board, with a large single track outer oval, a smaller inner circle (branching off the larger one) and a siding onto a pier. There were a total of 3 entrances into the castle walls. Before settling for 009 I did briefly consider 016.5 (too big for the available space) and 09 (more accurate to prototype gauge but less rolling stock available; I was also keen to have a bit more space to develop the scenery, which 4mm scale would give me). I think at one point I even considered 012, because of the availability of a potentially suitable loco kit. This was built more than a decade ago and was my first proper layout in 009, or in any scale in fact. More recently I’ve thought about revisiting this prototype and doing an 09 micro layout based on the interior of the castle. At one point I vaguely considered adding a bit of static standard gauge 00 to represent the end of a railway along the spit but this wouldn’t really have fitted in with the rest of the layout.

[TangoOscarMike]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

My layout, very loosely based on Hurst Castle, was built in 009......

 

I think I speak for everybody when I say: if you have pictures, then please, please post them!

 

[009 micro modeller]

23 hours ago, TangoOscarMike said:

 

I think I speak for everybody when I say: if you have pictures, then please, please post them!

 

 

I do, it might take me a bit of time to get them sorted out and post them on here but I’ve definitely got quite a few.

Edited November 15, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

On 14/11/2020 at 22:45, TangoOscarMike said:

 

I think I speak for everybody when I say: if you have pictures, then please, please post them!

 

 

Here are a few photos of my 009 'Hercules Castle.' The first (below) shows my Pugbash tram loco on the pier with the Hurst Castle-design shell-carrying wagons. These were constructed on standard Peco N gauge chassis and are fitted with Elsie/Rapido couplings, as were many of my early 009 wagons. The van on the right was not built by me but came from Cheltenham Model Centre.

 

 

Second photo (below) shows the overall view. The pier used 00 gauge bridge supports, appropriately cut down and blended into the "sea," with the deck made from real wood. The bridges were similarly made from wood - I think originally the plan was for these to have guard rails and chains like those at Hurst Castle, but they didn't get done in the end and  would probably have been quite easily damaged. N gauge set track was used, which meant heavy ballasting on the land sections to disguise the sleepers (I was not then advanced enough to do my new technique of cutting out alternate sleepers). The major difference from the real Hurst Castle is the style of the walls; on the model these were made out of wood faced with plasticard and styrene strip, designed to match the stonework of the towers (repainted Hornby Skaledale Normoyle Follies). The points on the bridge and those leading to the pier siding are motorised, while the non-scenic inner loop point is just manually (and not remotely) operated.

 

 

Inset caption originally for slideshow presentation (below), placed alongside the layout when it was exhibited. The trackbed material was also used to support the walls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The existence of the inner loop made it possible to have two trains on the layout, exchanging wagons between them and taking it in turn to run round the main circuit but also shunting, using either the fork between the two lines seen on the right in the photo above (inner and outer loop) or that on the left (main outer loop and pier siding).

 

 

Another construction photo (above).

 

Being my first proper 009 layout, there was of course a motley collection of locos and additional rolling stock of varying levels of (in)appropriateness for the prototype. Some whitemetal donkeys were later added to the layout - they are grazing, as they have retired, but they represent the animals apparently used to haul the wagons on the prototype line. Other wagons included a lot of flats (Roco/Egger/old Minitrains (it was before Minitrains was revived) or scratchbuilt) carrying boxes and cases of 'supplies' to and from the pier.

Edited November 19, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[TangoOscarMike]

Yes.

 

That's not what I was expecting, but I like it. The bulk of the castle doesn't appear, but the walls the shingle, the water, the grass - they all evoke the real thing. And the railway looks right in that setting.

[009 micro modeller]

31 minutes ago, TangoOscarMike said:

Yes.

 

That's not what I was expecting, but I like it. The bulk of the castle doesn't appear, but the walls the shingle, the water, the grass - they all evoke the real thing. And the railway looks right in that setting.

 

Thank you. Out of interest though, what were you expecting?

 

As I said, the relationship to the prototype is only very loose, which is why it doesn’t take the prototype’s name. It’s not so much the continuous run track plan that makes it unprototypical for me, more that the castle is in a completely different style and the track gauge is different, although it was never intended to be an exact model of the real Hurst Castle. In some of the photos you should be able to just make out the paving with inset track, which extends just inside the castle. The need to use the rear section as a storage/fiddleyard space, as well as the track plan and only really having one ‘viewing side’ is why I never really developed the inside of the castle any further. I think though that a smaller micro layout, perhaps in 09, could be built that would nicely evoke the space inside the walls.

[TangoOscarMike]

 

19 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

Thank you. Out of interest though, what were you expecting?

 

 

Maybe the word "expecting" was a bit strong - I have no right to expect anything! I guess I was imagining some of the interior, maybe from this point of view.

 

But you've captured the feel of the exterior admirably.

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, TangoOscarMike said:

 

 

Maybe the word "expecting" was a bit strong - I have no right to expect anything! I guess I was imagining some of the interior, maybe from this point of view.

 

But you've captured the feel of the exterior admirably.

 

 

 

 

Thank you. That exterior photo makes me wonder why I decided to ballast the track so heavily, rather than just embedding it in the grass. Sorry if my question came across the wrong way - I was just interested to see what you would have done, or thought I might have done.

 

The interior is very interesting and has a lot of possibilities - the shot you linked to is the sort of thing that would look good on my imagined larger scale micro layout idea, although arranging it so that the track can come into the scene, be seen and then exit would be a challenge. My (now slightly distant) memory of the prototype from the initial visit (mainly the exterior) is of a very wide, open space (reflected in my layout) with low-lying land, the pier in the distance and surrounded by sea, with the castle walls forming the main backdrop when looking in the direction of the fort. In complete contrast to this, the inside of the castle is rather claustrophobic. There are a couple of photos of the railway at Efford Fort in the Middleton Press Devon Narrow Gauge book, which seems similar in some ways. The Hampshire equivalent of this book features Hurst Castle itself, although I think in both cases only post-abandonment/preservation era photos are used.

[TangoOscarMike]

@All - I'm not sure of the etiquette here. Should I take my doodles out of Prototype and into Modelling?

 

On 20/11/2020 at 01:02, 009 micro modeller said:

The interior is very interesting and has a lot of possibilities - 

 

Here is a doodle of something that could be achieved in OO6.5, using the Busch Feldbahn track.

 

The red-ish lines show the outline of the real Tudor fort, plus the beginnings of the Palmerston wings.

 

My shrunken Tudor fort (greyish colour) has the whole inner courtyard at about the same size as the real inner tower, the two landward bastions missing, and a correspondingly shrunken central tower. The miniature Palmerston wings (sandy colour) could probably accommodate three guns each. The railway (green) exits the fort in roughly the right places, similarly to yours. In real life the railway doesn't run through the Tudor fort, but that doesn't bother me.

 

The real structures are pretty large - I think it would be possible to adjust the height (by a combination of removing storeys and reducing their height) to keep the proportions consistent.

 

 

This would all fit in about a square metre, whereas the real castle is about 6m long in 1/76. It would of course be possible to model more of the spit (coastguard cottages, inn, lighthouse and pier) and extend the railway to visit those other features.

 

But having drawn that, I'm now thinking that something much more compact could be achieved using only a basic oval of Busch track.

 

So it's back to the drawing board for me.

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by TangoOscarMike

[TangoOscarMike]

And finally (let us hope!), a tiny castle using only the basic Busch oval.

 

 

This would fit on a 70cm x 50cm baseboard. I reckon there's still some scope for further shrinking.