GWR Clerestory 3rd and brake 3rd (R4800 and R4900)

[david_lewis_24c]

Would these coaches have been used on branch lines and if so, what sort of engine?

 

TIA

 

[Miss Prism]

They were passed down for secondary services during the late-20s (typically). Some probably served as set strengtheners in later days, although corridor stock remained a rarity on GWR branch lines.

 

Engine types on branch lines were not determined by stock type.

 

[david_lewis_24c]

Miss Prism, Hi!

Thanks for the response, what sort of engines would the GWR have used on branch lines in the late-20s?

 

Many thanks!

[Miss Prism]

Standard Goods 0-6-0
455 Class 2-4-0T (Metro)
517 Class 0-4-2T
645 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
655 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
850 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1076 Class 'Buffalo' 0-6-0ST/PT
1501 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1813 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1854 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1901 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
2021 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
2301 Class 'Dean goods' 0-6-0
2721 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
3201 Class 2-4-0
3226 Class 2-4-0
4400 Class 2-6-2T
4500/4575 Class 2-6-2T
5700 Class 0-6-0PT (although only just making the 'late-20s' restriction)

 

[Coach bogie]

The Hornby 'composite' did not exist in that form by the 1920's. They had all been rebuilt, prior to WWI as all thirds with the centre toilets removed. They look like this after rebuild.The D29 Brake third remained unchanged, apart from some losing the look outs when electric lighting was fitted.

Mike Wiltshire

[DCB]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Standard Goods 0-6-0
455 Class 2-4-0T (Metro)
517 Class 0-4-2T
645 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
655 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
850 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1076 Class 'Buffalo' 0-6-0ST/PT
1501 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1813 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1854 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
1901 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
2021 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
2301 Class 'Dean goods' 0-6-0
2721 Class 0-6-0ST/PT
3201 Class 2-4-0
3226 Class 2-4-0
4400 Class 2-6-2T
4500/4575 Class 2-6-2T
5700 Class 0-6-0PT (although only just making the 'late-20s' restriction)

 

Very little RTR.   The 57XX were Blue route restriction in GWR days, and became branch line engines in 1950 when re designated Yellow. Which leaves the (Oxford) Dean Goods, Bachmann 45XX and 4575. and  of course the Hornby 2721 and Dean, though to be honest its probably easier to back date a Bachmann 57XX to the earlier large pannier classes like than to bring the 2721 into the 21st century.

[david_lewis_24c]

Thanks for the information, I was looking to recreate the type of train that Poirot would arrive on at branchline station to solve a murder at the hall.

[melmoth]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

...though to be honest its probably easier to back date a Bachmann 57XX to the earlier large pannier classes like than to bring the 2721 into the 21st century.

 

This is a pretty good go at it...

 

https://srmg.org.uk/detailing-hornbys-ancient-opencab-pannier/

 

 

[Harlequin]

55 minutes ago, david_lewis_24c said:

Thanks for the information, I was looking to recreate the type of train that Poirot would arrive on at branchline station to solve a murder at the hall.

 

You could do the same as the TV production companies - just use any old loco from any era hauling BR Mk1 coaches...

 

[Il Grifone]

28 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

You could do the same as the TV production companies - just use any old loco from any era hauling BR Mk1 coaches...

 

 

I always wonder whether they asked the advice of the preserved line involved as to a suitable train.

 

Really the only R-T-R stock suitable for a GWR Branchline is the dated Ex-Airfix B-set and autocoach, which are really vehicles from the thirties. (At least they save picking out the mouldings in black....)

There was a K's kit for a twenties B-set, but good luck finding a pair today.

[david_lewis_24c]

Are any of the preserved lines running 20/30's era coaches?

[The Johnster]

Not the non-gangwayed types you'd see on branch lines in the 20s.  It is worth mentioning that the Ratio 4 wheeler types were still in service on branch lines at that time and so were the Hornby 'shorty' clerestories, though both these are representational rather than scale models of any real coach; the Hornby dates back to 1961, has no interior detail, and is a compartment short in length for both the all third and the brake third, not to mention the very basic underframe and incorrect bogies.

 

They can be worked up a bit; I have 3 for an early 50s miner's workman's.  The obvious shortcomings are the buffers and the bogies, which are easily replaced (I recommend Stafford Road Works/Shapeways Dean 8'6", which come with an NEM pocket in the print) or you can make acceptable ersatz Dean bogies from the Hornby B1; cut the tiebar out and glue a footboard to it with cutouts for the axle boxes.  Cut out plasticard compartment dividers, Ratio seating, glazing for the clerestory lights, and Robert is your father or mother's brother.

 

The Swansea conversion of the 2721 is similar to my effort, but I've included a replacement chimney from a scrapped kit built Westward 64xx, along with the safety valve cover and dome.  These make a massive difference.  Be careful of your prototype as some had fishbelly coupling rods (which at least makes the Bachmann 57xx chassis suitable for them) and some fluted parallel, and some were given 57xx type cabs in their later lives.  There is a limit to how much lipstick you can put on this pig, as the wheel spacing is that of the original Triang Jinty, and nowhere near right for a GW loco (or a Jinty for that matter)  Any 57xx you use should not have a top feed boiler for this period.

 

Stafford Road also do a body print for the 517, which is AFAIK suitable for all the RTR 14xx/48xx chassis.

 

The K's plastic B set occasionally appears on 'Bay and I picked one up there and another unmade still in the packet one at a show on a stand.  This is diagram E116 which operated in the Bristol Areas AFAIK exclusively.  It's a bit basic, and needs a floor and the same interior work as the Hornby shorty clerestories, and the body end tooling is a bit weak, but the sides are fine.  K's also did a whitemetal A31 auto trailer, a steam railmotor conversion, which just squeezes in for the 1920s IIRC.  It weighs a ton, and is also floor/interior less, but has the saloon and cab dividing bulkheads.  Wear steel toecaps when operating with this in case of accidents.

 

Some steam railmotors were still operating in the 20s.

[david_lewis_24c]

Many thanks for all of the information, it is very much appreciated.  

 

 

[Il Grifone]

I've seen the K's autocoach converted back to the steam railmotor and thought to do the same myself (I do have two of the things - neither finished  ), but dropped the idea. The idea of building the chassis with the Walschaert's valve gear put me  off. I was going to pass the motor off as the boiler.

 

The early versions of the kit have a white metal roof, the later ones a flimsy sheet plastic affair.

IIRC the kit comes with 9 foot American bogies, but should have 8 foot.

[The Johnster]

21 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I've seen the K's autocoach converted back to the steam railmotor and thought to do the same myself (I do have two of the things - neither finished  ), but dropped the idea. The idea of building the chassis with the Walschaert's valve gear put me  off. I was going to pass the motor off as the boiler.

 

The early versions of the kit have a white metal roof, the later ones a flimsy sheet plastic affair.

IIRC the kit comes with 9 foot American bogies, but should have 8 foot.

A31s, in line with the railmotors they were rebuilt from, come with 2 body types and 3 bogie types.  The original railmotors were built at Swindon and at Gloucester RCW, and while the Swindon builds had the standard central inward opening door to the passenger vestibule, with one big window, the Gloucesters had double doors.  The K's kit has the Gloucester double doors, probably because that's what they measured, but no Gloucester had Amercian bogies in reality.  Some A31s had 8'6" fishbelly bogies, including Gloucesters, which would have been more appropriate for the kit as they produced them for their E116 B set kit, and some, again including Gloucesters, had 7' Collett bogies.  I have two of them, 207 with fishbellies and 211 with Colletts.  I ran into trouble with the Colletts as the bogie pivots on these coaches are asymmetrical, the van (former motor) end being further in from the end of the trailer; I have had to fabricate my own mount for the NEM coupling I use as the coach must be capable of being propelled around a no.4 curve without buffer locking.

 

The conversion to Swindon build is a matter of filing down the relief join between the double doors,  the handles, and one set of hinges, all detail cast into the whitemetal on the kit, and cutting the two small windows into one large one.  The hard part is representing the slightly raised beading in the window frame, and if I were doing it I'd probably cheat by filing the beading off altogether; close enough for jazz on a layout coach which is never going to be a finescale model anyway.  There is a limit to how much lipstick you can put on a pig...

 

The bogies came from Stafford Road/Shapeways, and are ideal for me because they have NEM pockets printed in.  They are well detailed, the rough surface of the print effectively vanishes when you paint them, even with thin coats of acrylic, and they run superbly well with Bachmann coach wheels.  207 is in BR crimson with the toplights plated; very distinctive, 211 in 1945 GW livery.  The 2 coupled together are about as much as a Bachmann 4575 can manage; the use of the original whitemetal bogies (reserved for the next LIma Siphon) would probably have tipped the balance, and I am probably lucky that my kits came with the flimsy plastic roof; not sure my baseboards or the layout room floor are specified for that sort of loading!

[Il Grifone]

Thanks! that is really useful information.     I have a stock of K's fishbelly bogies which I didn't know what to do with. I do now - it might even convince me to finish the two cars.

 

I am surprised the Bachmann 4575 can manage two of the things.... I suppose pin point axles help. K's bogies are not known for free running, so I'll have to fit them or they'll have to decorate a siding. This would be prototypical. I remember on my odd visits to Laira in the fifties there were always some parked alongside the main line.

[kandc_au]

On 02/06/2020 at 23:18, Il Grifone said:

I've seen the K's autocoach converted back to the steam railmotor and thought to do the same myself (I do have two of the things - neither finished  ), but dropped the idea. The idea of building the chassis with the Walschaert's valve gear put me  off. I was going to pass the motor off as the boiler.

 

The early versions of the kit have a white metal roof, the later ones a flimsy sheet plastic affair.

IIRC the kit comes with 9 foot American bogies, but should have 8 foot.

Have you been to the S4 Forum and looked at what Andy Suter is doing?
Not sure if it will be available and OO and EM but worthwhile finding out.
Could be possible to get the motor section I should imagine BUT I am not sure.
believe it runs very nicely!

Khris