Options for (maybe partial) computerisation

[ITG]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, they say. That might be where I am at, but definitely also not knowing what I don’t know.

 

Here’s the circumstances......

1. I restarted in this hobby about 18 months ago, building a first layout for many years. For me, some aspects I got right (opting for OO, choosing DCC, live frogs, etc) and some things wrong (baseboard material and construction).

2. So I am just preparing to start all over again, using professionally built modular Boards and trying retain my ‘right’ choices, and correct/improve/develop the less right ones.

3. I will continue to use DCC for points Control (30+ points), but I do find it ‘user-unfriendly’ to use only my GM PA2 to control point switching (plus of course loco driving), really due to the need to keep switching functions between loco control and accessory control. So I have dabbled with the set up of JMRI purely for the purpose of points control, using a track plan with an on screen mimic panel. TBH, I found JMRI a bit clunky, a factor brought more into consideration, as I cannot see myself using much of its other myriad functions and purposes. And haven’t succeeded in getting an aesthetically pleasing representation of the plan on screen.
4. I have DC servo uncouplers, for which I have a physical mimic panel, and am concerned that having points switches and indicator LEDs all on this physical panel as well, may make the whole thing too busy, and a spaghetti of wiring.

 

so, the question really is.....

What other options might I have for an on screen control of points? I don’t mind investing in software but obviously don’t want to waste money on something that doesn’t tick the right boxes?

And might there be other computerised functions, which are not on my radar? I’m not really at the stage of sitting back to watch a computer move trains around.

Any other relevant thoughts most welcome.

PS Edit - I’m not averse to changing the Prodigy if ther are benefits in compatibility with other systems.

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by ITG

[Nigelcliffe]

Free, JMRI or Rocrail. 

 

I suspect you're looking in the "wrong" bits of JMRI, because its possible to produce any graphical appearance you want if you do it in the "right" place.  JMRI documentation is not great, lacking clear pointers as to where to go.

 

For what you've described, you'd be better in the "Panel Editor", not the "Layout Editor".  

The Layout Editor looks attractive, because it has lots of things to link bits of track together to produce a diagram.   But, it's real underlying purpose is for advanced logic - the computer being told which blocks are linked, how signals are linked to turnouts, and thus paths through the trackwork, etc..  Great if you're using those features, but perhaps not helpful if not.

 

How to use the Panel Editor:

1 - dabble around inside JMRI and see if there are any icons already there for turnouts which look "right" for your appearance.  If there are, great, you'll use those,  if not, you need to draw your own as PNG or GIF files in a graphics editor (eg. Gimp, Photoshop, Paint, etc..).  At a minimum you'll need left and right, in both "thrown" and "normal" position.

2 - draw your layout out in graphics package of choice (Gimp, Photoshop, etc..).  Put white squares where each turnout would be (effectively cut them out).  Save this as another PNG/GIF.

3 - in Panel Editor,  bring in layout as a background (its something you add to a panel, just like a turnout). 

4 - in Panel Editor, add each turnout in turn, selecting the graphic appearance wanted, and drag it (right click mouse) to position on the panel. 

 

There are a lot of other ways of doing the above, but its one which is quick and works.    If you want a row of switches, and a diagram that moves (but can't be directly clicked upon), then that's fairly easy as well. 

 

 

- Nigel 

 

[ITG]

Nigel, thanks. You have helped me previously with my first steps towards JMRI. 
How possible is it to import Anyrail track plan to JMRI? I seemed to recall I did manage that, but then couldn’t work out how to convert the imported identities of a turnout so that JMRI recognised them, and/or they related to my DCC turnout numbering. My memory is a little vague apart from recalling I didn’t succeed in what I was trying to do.

 

That said, I will look again at your suggestions.

[Nigelcliffe]

2 hours ago, ITG said:

Nigel, thanks. You have helped me previously with my first steps towards JMRI. 
How possible is it to import Anyrail track plan to JMRI? I seemed to recall I did manage that, but then couldn’t work out how to convert the imported identities of a turnout so that JMRI recognised them, and/or they related to my DCC turnout numbering. My memory is a little vague apart from recalling I didn’t succeed in what I was trying to do.

 

That said, I will look again at your suggestions.

 

I believe it may be possible, I think it gets you into the Layout Editor.   You'd still have to go through the turnout table and make sure everything lined up (ie. whatever names/numbers came in from AnyRail need to match what you've actually numbered them as DCC turnout addresses).

But its not how I'd approach things.   

 

If your AnyRail diagram is visually close to how you want a control panel to look, I'd screen shot that (CTRL-ALT-PRT.SC in Windows), and then paste it to a paint/graphics package.  From there produce the required graphic elements - the background (all track and other graphics, except things that change appearance in the interface), the turnouts, symbols for uncouplers, and any other switch items you may require (uncouplers, etc..). 

 

If you can post the track plan from AnyRail as a graphic (GIF/PNG), then I could do a small corner of it to illustrate the approach.

 

 

- Nigel

 

[ITG]

Thanks Nigel, you’re quite right in that the Anyrail import did go into Layout Editor.

I will take you up on your kind offer. The layout points areas break down into 3 areas, being terminus station, double-ended staging yard and main line (crossovers and loops etc.) So it should be straightforward to decide upon one corner of it. In fact, as the track plan for the terminus is still under final tweaking, it may be helpful to leave that off for now.

back soon.

[ITG]

Hi again Nigel,

 

here is a PNG of the lower level only. Not that it will matter, I'm sure, but I have omitted the higher level terminus which sits above the 'hidden' tracks along the upper wall, and also cut off the bottom-left incline approach to this station.

The parallel tracks across the diagonal board are the staging/fiddle yard.

Good luck, and again, thanks for your help.

[JimFin]

23 hours ago, ITG said:

What other options might I have for an on screen control of points? I don’t mind investing in software but obviously don’t want to waste money on something that doesn’t tick the right boxes?

And might there be other computerised functions, which are not on my radar? I’m not really at the stage of sitting back to watch a computer move trains around.

Any other relevant thoughts most welcome.

 

 

Looks like you may have made progress but if still seeking an alternative, RocRail is worth a look as Nigel said

 

Their method of creating a screen control panel is almost identical to AnyRail with defined objects for track points and accessories. Once you have set up your panel, each element has a fairly straightforward dialogue box to assign the appropriate values. Point, uncouplers, signals, lighting etc all follow the same path.

 

Full automation is possible as is web based control from tablet / mobile phone etc. should you want to go that direction in the future.

 

It also allows external commands which I use for sound effects by bluetooth to a remote speaker. View of my simple control panel below. the "stray" point icons for track and workshop run the servos for the loco shed doors, need to get round to changing those icons -  but for the moment - they work!

 

 

All the best with your project.

[ITG]

JimFin,

that looks interesting and seemingly simple. I shall have a ponder. Thanks.

[ITG]

2 hours ago, JimFin said:

 

Looks like you may have made progress but if still seeking an alternative, RocRail is worth a look as Nigel said

 

Their method of creating a screen control panel is almost identical to AnyRail with defined objects for track points and accessories. Once you have set up your panel, each element has a fairly straightforward dialogue box to assign the appropriate values. Point, uncouplers, signals, lighting etc all follow the same path.

 

Full automation is possible as is web based control from tablet / mobile phone etc. should you want to go that direction in the future.

 

It also allows external commands which I use for sound effects by bluetooth to a remote speaker. View of my simple control panel below. the "stray" point icons for track and workshop run the servos for the loco shed doors, need to get round to changing those icons -  but for the moment - they work!

 

 

All the best with your project.

JimFin, I’m having a scan through the RocRail introductions, and when checking supported devices, I didn’t see Gaugemaster (or MRC ) Prodigy Advance 2 on there. Does Rocrail work with that?

ian

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

JimFin, I’m having a scan through the RocRail introductions, and when checking supported devices, I didn’t see Gaugemaster (or MRC ) Prodigy Advance 2 on there. Does Rocrail work with that?

ian

 

Unlikely.   MRC have a long tradition of "nothing but MRC".  For years they refused to provide any details of their computer interface specification believing that MRC would provide everything to their customers.  Eventually, because of pressure from US MRC users, they relented and gave some basic information to the JMRI developers, though even that information seems to be a bit patchy from comments on the JMRI developer's email list. 

 

Still working on a JMRI panel illustration, maybe later tonight.    The graphic above is too pixelated to be much use (zoom in and look at all the pixilation around the turnouts), a diagram which is more schematic is easier, so I'm quickly drawing one of those up. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[ITG]

A virtual beer to you, Nigel.

[JimFin]

Yep - ther 

2 hours ago, ITG said:

JimFin, I’m having a scan through the RocRail introductions, and when checking supported devices, I didn’t see Gaugemaster (or MRC ) Prodigy Advance 2 on there. Does Rocrail work with that?

ian

I looked up their forum and this was discussed in 2017 but the request received the following - We do not release the protocols for our Prodigy system. We do not offer an API or release of any kind for our protocols, it is a closed software. There is at least one user using a backdoor approach but RocRail is not supporting it. So sorry if that was a red herring. 

[ITG]

Thanks JF, I joined the RocRail forum, and got a similar response from there. 
 

That said, I’m at a stage of ‘nothing ruled in nothing ruled out’ thinking, which includes possibly changing my DCC system. So you never know.  Nevertheless thanks for your help.

[ITG]

Nigel,

in case it makes it easier, here attached is a 'line' version of the png file, for which I also doubled the pixel intensity (if thats the right word!)

[Nigelcliffe]

Thanks for better file, but already re-drawn.   Hopefully this will give clues...

 

Firstly, get a PNG for the background - its all the track, with the turnouts removed.

 

 

I build it by using "layers" in a graphics editor, I use GIMP, but many others will work.  I put the turnout icons on layers (usually lots of layers with turnout icons), so I know they fit precisely when I draw the track lines.  I also added a grid to get the track centres correct.  And then, importantly, draw the plain track lines in their own single layer.    When done, turn off (hide) all the layers except the plain track, and save the plain track out as a PNG.  

 

In the JMRI Panel Editor, this PNG can be inserted as a background.  Then add the turnout icons, positioning them by dragging, and rotating (rotate orthogonal changes the icon through 90 degree steps). 

 

On the version I built, I paired up the cross-overs so they operate together (two icons, to the same turnout address).   And I reversed (edited) the icons used for half of the cross-over on the left on the blue circuit.   Resulting panel looks like this.   All the black turnouts are clickable to change them. 

 

 

 

It is possible, and not massively difficult to edit the icons for the turnouts - that's what I'd originally intended to do from the track diagram, but it needs one where a visual design for the icon can be dreamed up.   It needs four icons, covering the four states (unknown, inconsistent, thrown, normal ). 

 

I've also PM'ed a link to the JMRI files,  those are a ZIP, so not permitted as an attachment to a posting.

 

 

- Nigel