Jump to content
 

Passenger Rolling Stock - Midland West Riding Line


Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold

One of the trains that I want to portray on Dewsbury is the Edinburgh - St Pancras (and v.v.) overnight train. Layout is set 1957 - 1963. As an aside, I note that sleeper passengers from Edinburgh were not allowed to use this train (as per January 1953 Bradshaw) as "accommodation is limited".

 

Since North British days, the sleepers on this service were of NB and then LNER design which makes for some extra visual interest in a mainly BR Mk1 / ex-LMS world. I am not too sure of the date at which the ex-LNER sleepers would have been replaced by Mk1 sleepers but Rule 1 will apply if necessary.

 

So, my first purchase for this train is a Hornby 1st class Gresley sleeper in carmine and cream. I am puzzled as to which diagram of coach is represented. Having consulted Michael Baker's book, it does not seem to match anything. On another thread, someone suggested Diagram 17 but Baker is explicit that they had large windows on the corridor side. Could it be a later variant? Baker only goes up to 1931. I think that I have a copy of Campling somewhere but I have not found it.

 

All the photos of this train that I have seen (which is not many as so often with overnight trains) show two sleeping cars. And Bradshaw does not indicate 1st class only. So presumably I need to source a second class sleeper to run with the all-first. Here again, I am struggling but that may be due to the early date that Baker stops his coverage. At that time, all the 3rd class sleepers were "convertible" and did not look a whole lot different on the outside to any other Gresley 3rd class corridor coach. So that should be easy - label up a Maroon SK as Sleeping Car and put blinds down on the windows - if only it did not conflict with those pictures which show two carriages with small windows.

 

Can anyone advise please?

 

Edit to add: Just found a reference to the 1955 consist for this train with four sleeping cars: two composite, one third, one first. So accommodation was not all that limited.

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Thanks, Robert. Very useful even if it does go against my desire for some LNER vehicles. The alternative is LMS designs rather than BR Mk1.

 

The other thing that shows up on your diagram that I did not have is the presence of a fish van for Nottingham. I will have to look into that because it certainly adds some interest.

 

I can't open that Flickr link as, for the first time ever, it has asked me for a password.

Link to post
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Just found the book that I have with 1955 train formations for the Midland. Ex-LNER sleepers still used on alternate nights then.

If it's the book I think it is, it's largely a transcription of the Winter 1955-6 carriage workings for the LMR Midland Division. Here is the actual working for the train:

 

49956982101_780a701d6c_c.jpgEd-STP_sleeper_1955-6 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

If it's the book I think it is, it's largely a transcription of the Winter 1955-6 carriage workings for the LMR Midland Division. Here is the actual working for the train:

 

49956982101_780a701d6c_c.jpgEd-STP_sleeper_1955-6 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Thank you again, Robert. I find that one quite hard to interpret!

Link to post
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Thank you again, Robert. I find that one quite hard to interpret!

The two sleepers alternated between an LMS-design first and third (twin-berth) and two LNER-design composites (if that is what they were). Remainder appears to be LMS-design stock, two composites and a corridor third, with an additional corridor third on Fridays and Saturdays. A BG at each end, I believe the squiggle indicates steel vehicles, and fish vans attached too for part of the journey. On Saturdays only, attach a sleeper first and sleeper third at the front inside the Nottingham van but, it appears, ahead of the BG, with the first to have a gangway adaptor - these two would have been LMS designs. X FISH was a 6-wheeled fish van.

 

The whole book and the Summer 1955 one are both available via my coaching stock group - link below.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
10 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Since North British days, the sleepers on this service were of NB and then LNER design 

 

Although not directly relevant to the subject, just as a point of information, in pre-grouping days and up to 1928, the stock for trains over the Waverley route and on into England over the Settle & Carlisle to Leeds and St Pancras was not North British, but Midland & North British Joint Stock of Midland Railway design. Sleeping accommodation included some 54 ft composite and 65 ft first class sleeping carriages built 1905/6, originally Midland vehicles but transferred to the joint stock in 1906 and 1908. The 65 ft carriages were replaced by new LMS-built 68 ft sleepers in 1927. When the joint stock arrangement ceased in 1928, the carriages were divided 2/3 to the LMS and 1/3 to the LNER but as far as I can work out continued to be used on the same duties, at least for a while. [Ref. R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986).]

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Although not directly relevant to the subject, just as a point of information, in pre-grouping days and up to 1928, the stock for trains over the Waverley route and on into England over the Settle & Carlisle to Leeds and St Pancras was not North British, but Midland & North British Joint Stock of Midland Railway design. Sleeping accommodation included some 54 ft composite and 65 ft first class sleeping carriages built 1905/6, originally Midland vehicles but transferred to the joint stock in 1906 and 1908. The 65 ft carriages were replaced by new LMS-built 68 ft sleepers in 1927. When the joint stock arrangement ceased in 1928, the carriages were divided 2/3 to the LMS and 1/3 to the LNER but as far as I can work out continued to be used on the same duties, at least for a while. [Ref. R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986).]

Yes, sorry, I did not word the first post very well. I was aware that the earlier stock was "joint" and virtually identical to contemporaneous Midland stock.

 

The main point though, to clarify, is that, for many years LNER design sleeping cars were used on this train on alternate days. Robert suggests that it would have been two composites from the LNER/BR(Sc) rather than a first and a second. So I need to look at this again. Perhaps Hornby did not make the best choice of sleeper vehicle to make?

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
8 hours ago, robertcwp said:

The two sleepers alternated between an LMS-design first and third (twin-berth) and two LNER-design composites (if that is what they were). Remainder appears to be LMS-design stock, two composites and a corridor third, with an additional corridor third on Fridays and Saturdays. A BG at each end, I believe the squiggle indicates steel vehicles, and fish vans attached too for part of the journey. On Saturdays only, attach a sleeper first and sleeper third at the front inside the Nottingham van but, it appears, ahead of the BG, with the first to have a gangway adaptor - these two would have been LMS designs. X FISH was a 6-wheeled fish van.

 

The whole book and the Summer 1955 one are both available via my coaching stock group - link below.

 

That throws up another anomaly, or at least something different to what I had understood so far.

 

Down sleeper service from St Pancras to Leeds had its own train. But the Up service saw the sleepers attached to the Edinburgh train. I had understood that to be all week but your document has that on Saturdays only.

 

Of course, by modelling a railway that was designed but never built, there is a lot of interpretation to be done. If the West Riding Line had existed the whole pattern of Midland / LMS / BR(M) services to Leeds and Bradford would have been affected. I am still getting clear in my mind whether trains terminating in West Yorkshire should be split at Sheffield or run to Leeds via Bradford. It makes a big difference to the train consists as splitting the trains places the brakes in different positions. 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Of course, by modelling a railway that was designed but never built, there is a lot of interpretation to be done. If the West Riding Line had existed the whole pattern of Midland / LMS / BR(M) services to Leeds and Bradford would have been affected. I am still getting clear in my mind whether trains terminating in West Yorkshire should be split at Sheffield or run to Leeds via Bradford. It makes a big difference to the train consists as splitting the trains places the brakes in different positions. 

 

I like your thinking.

 

I'll just point out that West Riding and Scotch expresses need not have run via Sheffield - the "Old Road" (the original North Midland line) remained an express route. Just as, further south, there was a choice of routes via Derby, Trent, or Nottingham. My guess is that if the West Riding lines had been completed, Leeds might have declined in importance as far as the Midland route was concerned. Perhaps one can imagine Scotch expresses running via Bradford, maybe leaving a portion behind there to lessen the load over the fells, with Leeds having its own services, perhaps calling at Leicester, Derby or Nottingham, and Sheffield - slower, leaving the fast London-Leeds traffic to the Great Northern route - much as today?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I like your thinking.

 

I'll just point out that West Riding and Scotch expresses need not have run via Sheffield - the "Old Road" (the original North Midland line) remained an express route. Just as, further south, there was a choice of routes via Derby, Trent, or Nottingham. My guess is that if the West Riding lines had been completed, Leeds might have declined in importance as far as the Midland route was concerned. Perhaps one can imagine Scotch expresses running via Bradford, maybe leaving a portion behind there to lessen the load over the fells, with Leeds having its own services, perhaps calling at Leicester, Derby or Nottingham, and Sheffield - slower, leaving the fast London-Leeds traffic to the Great Northern route - much as today?

 

I think that's certainly right. If the West Riding Line had been built, the Midland would have focussed far more on Bradford than on Leeds. As a city, Bradford may have developed more with a better rail link to London.

 

You make an interesting point that it would become more worthwhile to speed up prime trains by running over the Old Road. Plenty of other trains to provide links with Sheffield. So a couple of "flyers" stopping only at Dewsbury, Masboro, Trent and Leicester.

 

It's a given that the Scottish trains would be diverted over the shorter route. They provide some operational variety as they will thunder through Dewsbury at 60mph. Much of the weekend has been spent revising my knowledge of ex-LMS sleeping cars and looking at the Comet/Wizard website.

 

I am coming to the conclusion that there would be fewer direct trains from St Pancras to Leeds and that they would not, of course, continue to Bradford. Some of my St Pancras to Bradford trains could continue on to Leeds but it seems unlikely with the exception of the overnight sleeper. That train will stop at Dewsbury to drop off a portion for Huddersfield and Halifax, two more towns whose fortunes would have been changed by having better links to London.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

It's interesting to note from various sources that BR(LMR) seemed to think it more important to modernise West Riding trains with BR Mk1s while leaving Derby/Manchester services with ex-LMS stock until around 1960. So, even by 1955, there were a lot of BR Mk1s on daytime trains although mixed with ex-LMS catering vehicles. On several services, restaurant cars were used only as buffets.

 

I clearly need to do a bit more research on this and perhaps nail down a definite date for the layout to make a proper selection of stock to run on it. I have applied to join Robert's group.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

So from my research looking at modelling the Aire Valley Line. Where any of your Northbound trains would end up well into the 60s most trains seem to be composed of exLMS stock with MK1s predominantly featuring in the big named expresses.

 

My own personal thoughts on the Midland taking a line through Bradford is that the trains going through would mostly have been the Anglo-Scottish trains. Had this mainline been completed I expect that these would have been more frequent. You might also perhaps get trains travelling from Sheffield/Leicester etc to Carlisle.

 

Most goods would have still be sent via Leeds (or via the proposed avoiding line which involved a lot of tunneling around the edge of Bradford).

 

I base this off of the general proposals and information I have seen which don't show much further investment in infrastructure in Bradford and generally seem to leave Forster Square largely as it was.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I saw that, but my question (perhaps not well phrased) was how they got from Dewsbury to the Rotherham area (where they had the choice of Old Road or Sheffield).  As I understand it, the Crigglestone route saw very little passenger traffic.  And looking at an atlas, how did the Midland route north of Dewsbury, did they have running rights ?

 

Adrian

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
6 minutes ago, figworthy said:

 

I saw that, but my question (perhaps not well phrased) was how they got from Dewsbury to the Rotherham area (where they had the choice of Old Road or Sheffield).  As I understand it, the Crigglestone route saw very little passenger traffic.  And looking at an atlas, how did the Midland route north of Dewsbury, did they have running rights ?

 

Adrian

 

The Midland's West Riding lines left the North Midland line at Royston Junction, just north of Cudworth. The Midland did in fact have running powers over the L&Y from Thornhill Junction, just short of Dewsbury, to Bradford, Halifax, and Huddersfield. These powers were exercised for regular goods traffic and, I believe, some excursions. There is an article in the Midland Railway Society Journal that I would have to look up to check chapter and verse. The Dewsbury branch was laid out as a first class main line which it would have been, if the gap between Dewsbury and Bradford had in fact been closed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
18 hours ago, Aire Head said:

So from my research looking at modelling the Aire Valley Line. Where any of your Northbound trains would end up well into the 60s most trains seem to be composed of exLMS stock with MK1s predominantly featuring in the big named expresses.

 

My own personal thoughts on the Midland taking a line through Bradford is that the trains going through would mostly have been the Anglo-Scottish trains. Had this mainline been completed I expect that these would have been more frequent. You might also perhaps get trains travelling from Sheffield/Leicester etc to Carlisle.

 

Most goods would have still be sent via Leeds (or via the proposed avoiding line which involved a lot of tunneling around the edge of Bradford).

 

I base this off of the general proposals and information I have seen which don't show much further investment in infrastructure in Bradford and generally seem to leave Forster Square largely as it was.

Yes, north of Bradford, most of the trains would still be of ex-LMS stock with just the three Scottish expresses (one starting from Leeds) having Mk1 stock. I have yet to find out when they got their Mk1 catering cars but, in any case, I like having the ex-LMS catering vehicles to add interest to the rake. But daytime trains from Bradford and Leeds to London were mainly Mk1 by 1955 as was The Devonian.

 

Other than a switch in emphasis towards Bradford, I don't think that the general decline of long-distance Scottish services on the Midland in BR days would have been halted.

 

I have not yet given much thought as to how this would all have impacted on freight. I am working on the passenger timetable first.

 

The West Riding Lines project went through various iterations over the years. At least one of them involved quite a large through station (4 platforms iirc) close to Forster Square. One plan involved a tunnel, one involved a viaduct. With any luck, Jamie 92208 will join us here as he knows a great deal about all this. I have no intention of ever modelling Bradford but perhaps one should still look at the design of the station there because it would impact on the timetable at Dewsbury.

 

9 hours ago, figworthy said:

 

I saw that, but my question (perhaps not well phrased) was how they got from Dewsbury to the Rotherham area (where they had the choice of Old Road or Sheffield).  As I understand it, the Crigglestone route saw very little passenger traffic.  And looking at an atlas, how did the Midland route north of Dewsbury, did they have running rights ?

 

Adrian

 

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland's West Riding lines left the North Midland line at Royston Junction, just north of Cudworth. The Midland did in fact have running powers over the L&Y from Thornhill Junction, just short of Dewsbury, to Bradford, Halifax, and Huddersfield. These powers were exercised for regular goods traffic and, I believe, some excursions. There is an article in the Midland Railway Society Journal that I would have to look up to check chapter and verse. The Dewsbury branch was laid out as a first class main line which it would have been, if the gap between Dewsbury and Bradford had in fact been closed.

 

Yes, in the real world, the one part of the line that did get built saw very little passenger traffic, mainly one train providing a direct link to Bradford Exchange from St Pancras. But it was laid out for heavy express traffic and would certainly have taken all the St Pancras to Scotland trains via Bradford as well as at least a proportion of the Midland's West Riding offering rather than the time-consuming reversal at Leeds.

 

When one gets into a project such as this, one can understand Tony Wright's view that modelling a real location is easier. In some ways, Dewsbury Midland is a real location, especially on the part that was finally built where we can still see much of the infrastructure. Plans were sufficiently advanced that engineering drawings exist for some of what was not built. So we have a lot of "knowns" to start from. But when it comes to judging what trains would have run over the line 90 years after construction, it is much more speculative.

 

In my wilder moments, I can imagine the LMS developing its 3-car DMU into a luxurious 6-car Pullman set for business travellers. Like the Coronation Scot, it could be painted blue!

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

In my wilder moments, I can imagine the LMS developing its 3-car DMU into a luxurious 6-car Pullman set for business travellers. Like the Coronation Scot, it could be painted blue!

 

Well, if modelling the later 60s, why not The Bradford Pullman?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, if modelling the later 60s, why not The Bradford Pullman?

 

Yes, that is definitely a possibility. LMR could have kept hold of the sets used on St Pancras - Manchester and transferred them to Yorkshire instead of passing them to the WR..

 

I may have to have two different operation dates for the layout so that I can include one of those. Needs a lottery win to buy that much extra stock. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, if modelling the later 60s, why not The Bradford Pullman?

 

Need to compete with the ER running the Yorkshire Pullman!

 

Another thought was in the 1950s (1956?) The regional boundary's changed and most of the Midland in Yorkshire became part of the Eastern regions.

 

Deltics to Carlisle :wink_mini:

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
19 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Need to compete with the ER running the Yorkshire Pullman!

 

Another thought was in the 1950s (1956?) The regional boundary's changed and most of the Midland in Yorkshire became part of the Eastern regions.

 

Deltics to Carlisle :wink_mini:

 

Yes, that's another aspect of history that may need revising for my purposes.

 

Manchester MRS modelled their Dewsbury as North Eastern Region. And why not? I like the tangerine signage.

 

But it seems to me that if the West Riding Lines had been built, BR would have divvied up the boundaries slightly differently and moved it to just north of Royston, so Dewsbury and Bradford (Forster Square) would have remained with the LMR. 

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
13 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Yes, in the real world, the one part of the line that did get built saw very little passenger traffic, mainly one train providing a direct link to Bradford Exchange from St Pancras. But it was laid out for heavy express traffic and would certainly have taken all the St Pancras to Scotland trains via Bradford as well as at least a proportion of the Midland's West Riding offering rather than the time-consuming reversal at Leeds.

 

When one gets into a project such as this, one can understand Tony Wright's view that modelling a real location is easier. In some ways, Dewsbury Midland is a real location, especially on the part that was finally built where we can still see much of the infrastructure. Plans were sufficiently advanced that engineering drawings exist for some of what was not built. So we have a lot of "knowns" to start from. But when it comes to judging what trains would have run over the line 90 years after construction, it is much more speculative.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation.  I was interpreting this as a "was" rather than a "might have been".  Not that there is anything wrong with exploring what could have happened.

 

Adrian

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland's West Riding lines left the North Midland line at Royston Junction, just north of Cudworth. The Midland did in fact have running powers over the L&Y from Thornhill Junction, just short of Dewsbury, to Bradford, Halifax, and Huddersfield. These powers were exercised for regular goods traffic and, I believe, some excursions. There is an article in the Midland Railway Society Journal that I would have to look up to check chapter and verse. The Dewsbury branch was laid out as a first class main line which it would have been, if the gap between Dewsbury and Bradford had in fact been closed.

 

I have to correct myself here. The Midland had running powers over the L&Y to Halifax but reached Huddersfield over its own metals - running powers over the L&Y from Thornhill Junction to Mirfield, thence to its goods station in Huddersfield over a four-and-a-half mile single track branch just to the west of the LNW line. The 1913-1915 OS 25" survey shows that although land was taken for a full-scale goods station, the facilities that actually materialised were rather limited.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...