Passenger Rolling Stock - Midland West Riding Line

[62613]

On 02/06/2020 at 16:23, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Yes, that's another aspect of history that may need revising for my purposes.

 

Manchester MRS modelled their Dewsbury as North Eastern Region. And why not? I like the tangerine signage.

 

But it seems to me that if the West Riding Lines had been built, BR would have divvied up the boundaries slightly differently and moved it to just north of Royston, so Dewsbury and Bradford (Forster Square) would have remained with the LMR. 

That's because, in the late 50s, most of the lines in the West Riding became part of the NE region. The boundary on the Standege route was, IIRC the Northerly tunnel portal

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 minutes ago, 62613 said:

That's because, in the late 50s, most of the lines in the West Riding became part of the NE region. The boundary on the Standege route was, IIRC the Northerly tunnel portal

 

Yes, we all know that.

 

But the issue is whether that would still have been the case if this route (and associated lines) had been constructed.

[Barry O]

The model of Dewsbury Midland we built in Leeds MRS predates the Manchester MRS rendition as well as a drawing (as plan of the month  in Railway Modeller) Our Dewsbury stayed in LM Maroon as due to it being on the new link route between Leeds(Victoria) and Bradford (London Road) it would have stayed in LM regions hands. 

 

Of course you can include the Liverpool Central to Hull trains (BR(LM)) stock alternating with BR(NE) stock alternating.

 

You should also look at the suburban services in the area as the ex GNR lines provided a lot of trains into Bradford.

 

Baz

[65179]

26 minutes ago, Barry O said:

....

 

Of course you can include the Liverpool Central to Hull trains (BR(LM)) stock alternating with BR(NE) stock alternating.

 

...

 

Baz

 

Aren't you getting your Liverpool stations mixed up there Barry?  Herculaneum Dock on the mind perhaps;-) The Hull trains to Central were all ER stock. I can't remember offhand whether the ones you are thinking of served Exchange or Lime St.

 

Simon

Edited June 4, 2020 by 65179

[Barry O]

Yep.. the expresses from Central  are all NE stock.. could be Exchange.. I should know what stock runs out of Central.. There are 2 of mine - ex LNER stock in blood and custard/

 

Baz

[Jub45565]

On 02/06/2020 at 07:33, Joseph_Pestell said:

Yes, north of Bradford, most of the trains would still be of ex-LMS stock with just the three Scottish expresses (one starting from Leeds) having Mk1 stock. I have yet to find out when they got their Mk1 catering cars but, in any case, I like having the ex-LMS catering vehicles to add interest to the rake.

 

The only Mk1 catering vehicle I've seen photos of in the Thames-Clyde and Waverley (also the only one referenced in the carriage workings I've seen) are the D25 RKBs, which were built in 1961 and seem to have been put on these services straight away when new. 

 

I agree that the LMS versions do add a bit of variety though. However, oddly, there are quite a few photos of the Mk1 D25 but with an LMS open next to it (odd in that they had only just got the rakes to fully Mk1s, with no dropped buckeyes or gangway adapters in use, only to bring one back in).

 

One other thing - how are you considering the London - Scotland services to have been run?  In reality, they reversed at Leeds which also gave a replacement loco.  They were generally in the hands of Scots and Jubilees until the A3s and Class 45 Peaks arrived at Holbeck.  Would a loco swap still be envisaged? Or a larger loco if not? Duchesses were trialed on the Settle & Carlisle in the mid 50s, and used a few times on railtours in the mid 60s - but I don't think these were allowed on the southern section of the Midland mainline due to weight restrictions?

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, Jub45565 said:

 

The only Mk1 catering vehicle I've seen photos of in the Thames-Clyde and Waverley (also the only one referenced in the carriage workings I've seen) are the D25 RKBs, which were built in 1961 and seem to have been put on these services straight away when new. 

 

I agree that the LMS versions do add a bit of variety though. However, oddly, there are quite a few photos of the Mk1 D25 but with an LMS open next to it (odd in that they had only just got the rakes to fully Mk1s, with no dropped buckeyes or gangway adapters in use, only to bring one back in).

 

One other thing - how are you considering the London - Scotland services to have been run?  In reality, they reversed at Leeds which also gave a replacement loco.  They were generally in the hands of Scots and Jubilees until the A3s and Class 45 Peaks arrived at Holbeck.  Would a loco swap still be envisaged? Or a larger loco if not? Duchesses were trialed on the Settle & Carlisle in the mid 50s, and used a few times on railtours in the mid 60s - but I don't think these were allowed on the southern section of the Midland mainline due to weight restrictions?

Thanks for that date for introduction of Mk1 catering vehicles.

 

With regard to loco change, I think that the assumption has to be Bradford. I'm not aware of any infrastructure on the Midland that would have led to a ban on Duchesses. Probably more that there was no need for the extra power so nobody did the exercise of checking if they could be used.

 

So it should be Jubilees and Black 5s on most trains although I do have a Rebuilt Scot which will no doubt make an appearance.

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Aren't you getting your Liverpool stations mixed up there Barry?  Herculaneum Dock on the mind perhaps;-) The Hull trains to Central were all ER stock. I can't remember offhand whether the ones you are thinking of served Exchange or Lime St.

 

Simon

 

These trains are a bit peripheral to me as they would be running east-west through the ex-LNW station. But, of course, I will need to model that line at the point where it passes underneath the Midland Railway viaduct so I could have a static model of one of these trains on that bit of track. Just need to invent a suitably placed signal for it to be stopped at.

[Aire Head]

10 hours ago, Jub45565 said:

One other thing - how are you considering the London - Scotland services to have been run?  In reality, they reversed at Leeds which also gave a replacement loco.  They were generally in the hands of Scots and Jubilees until the A3s and Class 45 Peaks arrived at Holbeck.  Would a loco swap still be envisaged? Or a larger loco if not? Duchesses were trialed on the Settle & Carlisle in the mid 50s, and used a few times on railtours in the mid 60s - but I don't think these were allowed on the southern section of the Midland mainline due to weight restrictions?

 

The odds are that Manningham would have probably have been a more significant shed and therefore picked up a large chunk of the Jubilees and other "Express" locomotives assigned to Holbeck.

 

Any Loco changes would probably have been done at Bradford. I can't see any reason why the LMS would have decided to use different motive power had the line through Bradford been completed.

[Jub45565]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

I can't see any reason why the LMS would have decided to use different motive power had the line through Bradford been completed.

 

My point was the the reversal at Leeds necessitated a swap. A through route therefore doesn't need that.  The said, I have no knowledge of the West Coast main line - did they swap at Crewe by default? York wasn't set up for loco swaps on the East coast. Why not run through?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Jub45565 said:

 

My point was the the reversal at Leeds necessitated a swap. A through route therefore doesn't need that.  The said, I have no knowledge of the West Coast main line - did they swap at Crewe by default? York wasn't set up for loco swaps on the East coast. Why not run through?

 

A through route might not, but the locomotive workings might - coal running low, ashpan filling up, etc. The Thames-Clyde exchanged a Jubilee for a Rebuilt Scott (or vice-versa) at Leeds because the more powerful locomotive was needed for the run over the northern fells (I presume it worked through to Glasgow?) - so such a change could still have been in order when running via Bradford.

 

On the WCML, in pre-grouping and early LMS days, engines were changed at Crewe and Carlisle. Once the Royal Scots were introduced, I believe it became possible to omit one of these changes, with Camden engines working as far as Carlisle and Polmadie engines as far as Crewe, but it was only with the pacifics that engines started working right through and then only on certain trains.

 

On the ECML, the custom had been to change engines at Grantham, York, and Newcastle but again, with the larger engines of the later 20s, it became possible to omit some of these changes and, eventually, to run through with one engine but, again, only on the top expresses.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Compound2632

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Jub45565 said:

 

My point was the the reversal at Leeds necessitated a swap. A through route therefore doesn't need that.  The said, I have no knowledge of the West Coast main line - did they swap at Crewe by default? York wasn't set up for loco swaps on the East coast. Why not run through?

 

The Thames Clyde was a long old trip and certainly would require a Crew change and probably Loco change at least once on the route even without reversals.

 

Leeds and by extension Bradford are really logical places to do that since they are slap bang in the middle between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

Also the Settle to Ais Gill section wasn't known as The Long Drag for nothing!

[Joseph_Pestell]

If not Bradford, which may have been on a rather compact site, Hellifield would have been the obvious location.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

If not Bradford, which may have been on a rather compact site, Hellifield would have been the obvious location.

 

That might have made sense in Midland days, when there would be a Hellifield stop for adding / detaching Liverpool / Manchester through carriages, but I suspect that by the later LMS / BR period Bradfoed would be preferred. Changing engines didn't really take up much space or line capacity - it was already four lines into Foster Square from Shipley - 25 in map here. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That might have made sense in Midland days, when there would be a Hellifield stop for adding / detaching Liverpool / Manchester through carriages, but I suspect that by the later LMS / BR period Bradfoed would be preferred. Changing engines didn't really take up much space or line capacity - it was already four lines into Foster Square from Shipley - 25 in map here. 

 

I agree, Bradford by far the more likely. I am reasonably familiar with Forster Square and they should not have had too much difficulty to put in some high-level or low-level platforms adjacent to the existing terminus and space for loops, loco sidings, etc. Loco changes were often performed very rapidly, within the sort of time that one would expect a train to stop at a major station anyway.

 

During my lunch break I did sketch out some possible designs for the through platforms at Bradford. I have no intention of modelling it (plans could change!) but it helps in imagining how the line would be operated and feeds into the timetable for Dewsbury. It clearly does not need a bay at the north end as there are the adjacent Forster Square terminal platforms to cater for traffic in that direction. One, perhaps two, bay platforms at the south end for local traffic. 

[Barry O]

By the period you are talking about Bradford was no longer on the rise..it had already started its steady downhill slide.  If they had ever turned Foster Square into a through station...who knows. But the loco change at Leeds took very little time (you uncoupled one end and put a fresh engine on the other end.. I understand (from a Leeds Club member) that that took about 2 to 3 minutes tops. 

 

Check out the Leeds layout for info on the use of LM catering vehilces on the S&C

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64065-leeds-city-the-midland-side-in-4mm/

 

Try PMing him Joseph. He is very helpful!

 

Biggest problem the Midland lines had/have was/is ..mining subsidence..slowing the main line down.

 

Baz