Olivia's Trains has a strange system

[geoedlegg]

dunno whether i am just not understanding something, but i havent seen anyone mentioning the way Olivia's Trains does online orders, over email/over the phone etc. is this even secure? or am i being dumb somehow.

 

i know opinions of this shop are mixed, and people could argue for cenuries about whether they are good or not, im not asking for that though, im asking for clarification as to how their system works, and whether it is secure, no other olivias trains criticisms please.

[woodenhead]

I see what you mean, it is different but it avoids any online stock / ordering systems and relies on pretty much good old mail order.

 

I wonder what that does about distance selling?

 

There will be plenty along to pass comment on Olivia's trains, I'm just popping down for some popcorn.

[pheaton]

distance selling still applies, as long as you are not present with your payment at the point of origin, you are protected under the distance selling regulations

[Quarryscapes]

Website is built on a blog platform without e-commerce and no SSL, so the website is 100% unsecured. You should not use the same login details as you would for anything important, like banking if you create an online account with them and most definitely not pass financial details through any form on the site.

 

EDIT: SOME pages are Secured, some are not - it depends on the link being used, which should really be addressed. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Quarryscapes

[woodenhead]

It's funny people bemoan the loss of the traditional model shop and here we have one - a shop that is unwelcoming if you're not from Yorkshire, it deals in mail order through an old fashioned give us it all on a piece of paper (albeit an electronic one) and it can't take card payments except by sending your number in two emails or over the phone.

 

 

[AdamsRadial]

I'm more worried about my card number being stored on a database than I am about giving the details over the phone in the good old-fashioned way. I've had a card cloned once before where the attempts to use it were in the States and luckily my bank recognised that I couldn't have crossed the Atlantic in two hours and stopped it. I never fully established how the numbers got into the hands of the fraudster but the only place I ever used that card online was ordering from the Big River, so it had to be a database hack.

 

[geoedlegg]

yeah with GDPR companies are supposed to release breach information to the public, so should be fairly good as long as they comply with GDPR. but yeah, having your bank details stored on a database like that seems odd

[ejstubbs]

 

2 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

I'm more worried about my card number being stored on a database than I am about giving the details over the phone in the good old-fashioned way.

 

You are probably mistaken, then.

 

Depending on where you do it, giving card details over the phone can be appallingly insecure - on your mobile on a crowded train for example.  Even in an open-plan office I'd be wary: one of your colleagues might not be quite a honest as you'd hope...

 

The commonest way for card details to be compromised is by "skimming" either manually (e.g. you give your card to the waiter who disappears with it, then re-appears with the online terminal - they should be able to do it right there at your table) or using a device that reads the card as you are carrying out what looks to you like a secure electronic transaction (most commonly done by fitting a skimming device to ATMs but payment terminals can also be vulnerable to attack in this way).  Or by simply stealing (or better, because it doesn't alert the card holder, 'borrowing') the physical card.

 

The overwhelmingly vast majority of online card transactions don't go in to a database: the card is authenticated and the transaction is authorised without the retailer having to store any details at all - very often the card data never even passes through the retailer's system.  The one exception is when retailers such as Amazon helpfully offer to store your card details for you in order to facilitate "one click checkout".  If you're worried about that (and IMO it's not unreasonable to have concerns about that) then (a) don't shop with such retailers, and (b) if you must shop with them, do not allow them to remember your card details.

[geoedlegg]

This is my worry, giving bank details to a real person over the phone or over an email seems weird, has anyone had any past dealing with them? Disregarding delivery time customer service and what not, did you feel it was secure and trustworthy?

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

a shop that is unwelcoming if you're not from Yorkshire

 

It's not reet friendly if you are!

 

Mike.

[Nick G]

Funnily enough I ordered from Olivias Trains today over the phone, the first time I have used them. No one else had what I wanted in stock but they did. The chap seemed friendly enough, told me exactly what would happen next which was if they dispatched today I would get an email saying so with a tracking number. He said they were busy so if not dispatched today it would be tomorrow. Sure enough 2 hours later I had an email saying my item was on its way with a Royal Mail tracking number. I paid by credit card over the phone so fingers crossed!

Edited June 2, 2020 by Nick G

[DaveF]

Not specific to Olivias Trains but from the start of credit cards (I had my first one in 1973) until the coming of internet shopping it was normal to give credit card details over the phone for mail order - or even sending the details in a letter to order goods.

 

In the olden days we all sent cheques by post, even though they give full details of your bank acount.

 

David

Edited June 2, 2020 by DaveF

[Art Dent]

Hi,

 

Ordered from Olivia's in the past.  This was back in June 2016 so I can't fully recall the details but it was an odd transaction.

 

I couldn't pay on-line and had to phone them up and even then there was something odd about the order confirmation.

 

Also, their T&Cs were in breach of the Consumer Protection Act 2015, Section 29 where they said that as soon as you'd paid for the goods, they were your responsibility and if they got 'lost in the post' it was your problem.  I have these details stored but not the actual payment process.  Of course, they may have changed their T&Cs now (my order being 4 years ago) but it is something to watch out for.  To increase your level of protection if your order is over £100, pay by a credit card and then you have additional cover under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (this makes the credit card company jointly liable if things go belly-up).

 

Even worse was that I didn't get the item that I'd seen on the website and paid for!

 

The loco in question was a lightly-weathered 92220 Evening Star.  We live in Sheffield so went to the shop to collect the loco and were presented with a weathered 92220 that was so heavily weathered, the loco looked black.

 

Luckily, the one that was shown on the website was still available, and that's the one we took home.

 

My first (and last) purchase from Olivia's Trains.

 

Over-inflated prices, purchasing problems, non-too friendly shop staff, and (at the time) non-compliance with the Consumer Protection Act - never again.  Rails (also in Sheffield) far better in all respects (and no, I have no connection to Rails other than being a happy customer of theirs).

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

[Will Hay]

I second the last post insofar Rails of Sheffield are great.

Them, along with Hattons, are my first choice.

 

I've often looked at Olivia's numerous times over the last six months, i.e. since I started the hobby and have been extremely put off by what I agree is inflated prices.

 

I've not experienced the somewhat bizarre comment that if you're not from Yorkshire you're not welcome, even though I live in God's own county myself.

 

The stories re. insecure payments, combined with my experience of their prices, means I'll never bother checking them out again, it's just a waste of time.

[Torper]

1 hour ago, Art Dent said:

Also, their T&Cs were in breach of the Consumer Protection Act 2015, Section 29 where they said that as soon as you'd paid for the goods, they were your responsibility and if they got 'lost in the post' it was your problem.

 

Olivia's are not alone in saying things like that.  I also get annoyed when some companies charge both for postage and for "insurance".  As the latter is purely for the benefit of the seller, I never understand why the customer is required to pay it.

 

DT

[geoedlegg]

people are starting to divert from the question here, is it secure, in other words, did you ever get money stolen or cards stolen or whatever. no other criticisms 

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, geoedlegg said:

people are starting to divert from the question here, is it secure, in other words, did you ever get money stolen or cards stolen or whatever. no other criticisms 

It's a forum, there will be diversion from topic.

 

In answer to your specific question, we don't have reports of mass data losses from Olivias or of them being nefarious - just awkward to deal with.

 

If you decide to trade with them and something happens, just report it to the police to get a reference then contact your bank and they will deal with it and refund your loss.

[geoedlegg]

thanks woodenhead, seen you about before, appreciate your clarity and help

[JDW]

Is the card number actually stored anywhere though if you're just paying? I haven't ordered anything from Olivia's over the phone, so apologies if I've missed something, but surely when you phone up to pay over the phone (a method which has been available way longer than internet shopping) they just key in the numbers to the pinpad as you read them out? Having taken payments over the phone in a previous job (admittedly, to pay for coached of the road variety, at 12 inches to the foot scale, hire of, and not of the Hornby variety) it was pretty simple to take a phone payment. They read the details, I typed them into the card machine (same as you see in a shop) along with amount etc, pressed enter, and it worked the same as if I'd put the card in, confirmation from the bank in a few seconds, receipts printed for merchant and customer. No storing of card details. 

I've never had a problem with their attitude, though it's not somewhere I go often, Rails or Marcway tend to be my usual physical shops as they're easier to get to, or online from Kernow or Hattons.

[ejstubbs]

It's not necessary to write down the card details to take payment over the phone, but the point is that there's nothing to stop people doing it.  Equally, as I mentioned above, depending on where you happen to be at the time there's a risk of being eavesdropped.  (The other day I was reading out my card details to a local wine merchant and I realised that I was right next to a wide open window and there were quite likely neighbours enjoying the warm weather just the other side of the garden fence who could no doubt have earwigged had they been so inclined.)

 

It's amazing how people can go in to a 'bubble'.  I was once on a train where the guy sat opposite me was having a conversation on his mobile with a colleague about another colleague's disciplinary.  It was peak period and I couldn't help thinking when he got off the train that a good few other people leaving the train at that station were likely heading to the same office as him - and one or more of them could very well have known the colleague being discussed.

 

Not phone related, but I was once sat next to a chap on a train who was reading a file of witness statements for an upcoming court case (the charge was pretty serious, to the extent that it had already been widely reported in the media).  He had them laid out on the table in front of us both.  The defendant's name was at the top of every one.  You'd think that a lawyer would have at least a passing acquaintance with data protection law, wouldn't you?

[fezza]

It's 2020. My advice is to stick to professionally run retail operations on secure sites. 

 

A friend of mine didn't and it cost him nearly £7000 - and weeks of emails and phone calls to sort it out. 

 

There are plenty of good traders out there so we have the choice. 

[Torper]

I can think of several "niche" businesses where the normal method of payment is giving card details over the phone or even filling in a form with card details and posting it off.  In fact I can think of quite a few larger businesses where they're quite happy to accept payment by card over the phone.   it's a long established way of making payments, and indeed one I've used myself as trader, and I can't say that I've ever come to grief with it.  To regard it as a "strange system" isn't really accurate.  As long as you know who you're talking to, and aren't giving the details to a cold caller, I wouldn't have any worries about it.

 

DT

[JDW]

On 04/06/2020 at 00:47, Torper said:

I can think of several "niche" businesses where the normal method of payment is giving card details over the phone or even filling in a form with card details and posting it off.  In fact I can think of quite a few larger businesses where they're quite happy to accept payment by card over the phone.   it's a long established way of making payments, and indeed one I've used myself as trader, and I can't say that I've ever come to grief with it.  To regard it as a "strange system" isn't really accurate.  As long as you know who you're talking to, and aren't giving the details to a cold caller, I wouldn't have any worries about it.

 

DT

 

Indeed. In my case, the business was a multi-million pound transport provider, and people phoning to pay for coach hire ranged from individuals paying for a private hire to other multi-million pound companies phoning to pay four-figure sums for corporate hires on corporate credit cards. It wasn't exactly a "strange" way to pay, it's a fairly common one really. They and I were sitting in offices with other people around, no one was sitting surreptitiously scribbling down the numbers as I repeated them, and I never had any reason to write the number down. It either went through and we'd been paid, or it didn't and they found another way to pay, nor can I imagine any genuine and trustworthy retailer would - and to be clear, regadless of the various opinions of the shop/prices/owner, I'm including Olivia's in that.