Alan Gibson crankpin nuts

[Captain Kernow]

Although I've had my fair share of experience of using Alan Gibson wheels and their associated crankpin nuts, I've always found them awkward and time-consuming to fit and (especially) to remove.

 

I am currently fault-finding (and hopefully repairing) an 0-6-0 owned by a friend (and built by someone else), which will probably require the rods to be removed.

 

Before I go back in there with my pair of flattish jawed pliers, I was just wondering if others had a better suggestion or knew of some other, easier method?

 

Many thanks.
 

[Barclay]

Flat jawed pliers for me too.

 

I sometimes don't bother using them and instead use tiny slivers of brass tube, secured with solder. But then I'm something of a heathen because I don't mount the rods onto the shoulders of the washer things they supply. I just put them straight onto the crankpin, it allows the holes in the rods to be smaller and easier to keep accurate. I only did it their way once and the holes in the rods had to be so big there was almost no metal left.

 

Well that's my confession for the day!

[innocentman]

I use AGW wheels on a regular basis and could never get on with the AGW crankpins

 

A solution I use all the time now is to drill out and tap the crank pin hole in the wheel 10BA and then use a Romford crankpin held in by a thread locking compound.

 

Little trick I picked up from Michael Edge

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Captain Kernow]

10 minutes ago, innocentman said:

I use AGW wheels on a regular basis and could never get on with the AGW crankpins

 

A solution I use all the time now is to drill out and tap the crank pin hole in the wheel 10BA and then use a Romford crankpin held in by a thread locking compound.

 

Little trick I picked up from Michael Edge

 

Regards

 

Andy

Thanks for that, Andy, it's actually something I've been thinking about doing for some time as well. I think I already have a 10BA tap, but out of interest, what size of drill do you use, to drill the existing hole out, prior to using the tap, please?

 

[innocentman]

Just now, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks for that, Andy, it's actually something I've been thinking about doing for some time as well. I think I already have a 10BA tap, but out of interest, what size of drill do you use, to drill the existing hole out, prior to using the tap, please?

 

The Tapping drill I use for 10BA is 1.4 mm.

 

When doing a new build I always use a drill press when drilling to ensure squareness of the hole. On a retro fit with the wheels in place on a chassis its a pin chuck  and a lot of side views to ensure I'm drilling as square as possible. As long as you are reasonably close the  flange on the Romford crankpin will align itself square. 

 

Of course this all assumes you have the wiggle room for a screwdriver to enable you to unscrew the old M1 CSK machine screw from the back of the wheel without removing them from the axle .

 

Bets regards

 

Andy

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks for that, Andy, it's actually something I've been thinking about doing for some time as well. I think I already have a 10BA tap, but out of interest, what size of drill do you use, to drill the existing hole out, prior to using the tap, please?

 

According to my "Zeus Precision Data Charts and Reference Tables for Drawing Office, Toolroom and Workshop - Metric Revision" the tapping drill size for 10BA is 1.40mm. "Osborne's Cutting Tool Guide" tells me that that in turn is near as dammit a no 54 drill.

[innocentman]

2 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

According to my "Zeus Precision Data Charts and Reference Tables for Drawing Office, Toolroom and Workshop - Metric Revision" the tapping drill size for 10BA is 1.40mm. "Osborne's Cutting Tool Guide" tells me that that in turn is near as dammit a no 54 drill.

I just use the handy table that comes with the Taps

 

 

[t-b-g]

I put on and remove Gibson retainers by gripping the smaller diameter part of the retainer in a suitably sized pin chuck.

 

It makes them easy to use.

 

Before I learned that trick, I filed a small flat on two sides, which made it easier to turn with pliers.

Edited June 3, 2020 by t-b-g
Spelling

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, innocentman said:

I just use the handy table that comes with the Taps

 

 

Ah, but that doesn't tell you all the other things you didn't even know you wanted to know...

 

How about Coordinates for Locating Equally Spaced Holes in Jig Boring; Selected ISO Clearance, Transition and Interference Fits (Hole Basis); Threaded Shank Cutter Nomenclature; or Dimensions of Morse Taper Sleeves and Shanks?

 

I expect Rossi knows all those by heart anyway.

[PMP]

Ex medics tweezers that have a ridged grip at the end for me. When setting up, quartering etc I replace the nuts with the casing from layout wire, single core type. This means you can test/refit etc without fear of stripping or cross threading, or significantly reducing it at least. These are Romfords but same principle applies.

https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/trinity-08-brassmaster-rods/

Edited June 3, 2020 by PMP

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, innocentman said:

I use AGW wheels on a regular basis and could never get on with the AGW crankpins

 

A solution I use all the time now is to drill out and tap the crank pin hole in the wheel 10BA and then use a Romford crankpin held in by a thread locking compound.

 

Little trick I picked up from Michael Edge

 

Regards

 

Andy

I think Mike Edge solders the washers to the crankpins.

I've been thinking about this method too, but I'm a bit worried about getting a soldering iron that close to the plastic AGW wheels. I can see how it works Markits wheels, but I'm wary of the technique with the AGWs.

For removing the nuts on AGW wheels I use a pin vice

Cheers

Edited June 3, 2020 by PenrithBeacon

[t-b-g]

26 minutes ago, PMP said:

Ex medics tweezers that have a ridged grip at the end for me. When setting up, quartering etc I replace the nuts with the casing from layout wire, single core type. This means you can test/refit etc without fear of stripping or cross threading, or significantly reducing it at least. These are Romfords but same principle applies.

https://albionyard.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/trinity-08-brassmaster-rods/

 

One of my locos has been running with those for 30 years. The wheels were temporary until I could obtain some correct pattern ones. I bought the right wheels from Sharman when it really was Mike Sharman selling them and never got around to fitting them. The loco has been running all that time with the wrong wheels, 16 instead of 12 spokes, with wire insulation retainers. If anybody has noticed, they were too polite to say anything.

[5050]

Next time I see you.................................

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think Mike Edge solders the washers to the crankpins.

I've been thinking about this method too, but I'm a bit worried about getting a soldering iron that close to the plastic AGW wheels. I can see how it works Markits wheels, but I'm wary of the technique with the AGWs.

For removing the nuts on AGW wheels I use a pin vice

Cheers

You have to be quick with the soldering iron but it only needs a touch of solder to lock the fastener on - and they are easily removed if necessary by squeezing gently behind them with side cutters. The problem with the loose bushes (apart from being engineering nonsense) is that they are far to big in diameter. I don't much like running the rods on a steel screw thread either but I do have some locos which have been running for many years with this (Sharman wheels without the bushes).

[5050]

TBH, I don't tighten the crank pin nuts fully, I just get them to the 'end of the tighten' so to speak and then secure with a dab of sticky nail varnish.  My theory is that this allows the bush to rotate around the crankpin and, as they are generally a slack fit, prevents them locking off centre and creating a tight spot.

[Michael Edge]

Yes, that's what you have to do with Slater's wheels in 7mm - that's what I mean by engineering nonsense.

[5050]

36 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Yes, that's what you have to do with Slater's wheels in 7mm - that's what I mean by engineering nonsense.

What Mike Sharman and Iain Rice would call 'a pragmatic approach'.  ie - one that, on paper, is not to be done but, in practice, works fine.

 

Well, it does for me at any rate

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, 5050 said:

What Mike Sharman and Iain Rice would call 'a pragmatic approach'.  ie - one that, on paper, is not to be done but, in practice, works fine.

 

Well, it does for me at any rate

You mean, it works fine in practice, but I wonder if it works in theory? 

 

[5050]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

You mean, it works fine in practice, but I wonder if it works in theory? 

 

Er, yeeees, I thiiink sooooo.

 

You're confusing me now!

[RobMG]

I was about to give you the tapping size until I noticed you had a million replies telling you. 

I have never used Alan Gibson driving wheels, they look too fiddly me.  Having to drill the crankpin holes would be a right pain in the arse.   I have only used Mike Sharman wheels, Romford or Markits.     I have a set of Studiolith wheels for a GW  Hall never used, but they need drilling for crankpins too .

I didn't use them because I decided my life wasn't long enough, (I work very slowly)  I went for EM instead.  These days  because of a longish break from model railways  I do only 00gauge, Because it was easier for me to get started again.  I need to find a good home for the Studiolith wheels.  

 

Rob

[RobMG]

Oh btw the Studiolith wheels are P4 in case anybody wondered....

Rob

[pete_mcfarlane]

21 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think Mike Edge solders the washers to the crankpins.

I've been thinking about this method too, but I'm a bit worried about getting a soldering iron that close to the plastic AGW wheels. I can see how it works Markits wheels, but I'm wary of the technique with the AGWs.

 

On the NGRM forum somebody shared how they soldered the flycranks onto the axles of plastic centered wheels by putting the chassis in a tub of water, with the water level just covering the plastic bits and leaving the parts to be soldered exposed.  That might be worth a try (presumably having not fitted the motor at that point so it doesn't get wet).

[5050]

4 hours ago, RobMG said:

 

I have never used Alan Gibson driving wheels, they look too fiddly me.  Having to drill the crankpin holes would be a right pain in the arse.  

 

Rob

The vast majority of AG wheels are ready drilled out for the AG crankpins to be screwed straight in.  The only ones I know of that aren't are the 4'7.5" ones for GWR Panniers etc.  A GW wheelpress takes care of any 'fitting fiddling' and ensures correct quartering.

 

I always thought Studiolith wheels were already drilled to accept their own design of crankpin.  I'll have to have a look at the ones I've got stashed away.  Collectors items don't you know

Edited June 4, 2020 by 5050

[Paul Cram]

None oif the wheels I have bought recently are drilled. 4'7 NER and 5' NER

Edited June 4, 2020 by Paul Cram

[RobMG]

4 hours ago, 5050 said:

The vast majority of AG wheels are ready drilled out for the AG crankpins to be screwed straight in.  The only ones I know of that aren't are the 4'7.5" ones for GWR Panniers etc.  A GW wheelpress takes care of any 'fitting fiddling' and ensures correct quartering.

 

I always thought Studiolith wheels were already drilled to accept their own design of crankpin.  I'll have to have a look at the ones I've got stashed away.  Collectors items don't you know

Well as it happens the only AG wheels I have are 4'7 1/2" for the gw  pannier,  and they are not drilled as you say.  The real reason I haven't used them is because I only have 2 pairs. I have searched for another pair without success.  

I just had a look at my Studiolith wheels, and yes you are right they are drilled. I am sure now I think about it , that I had the crank pins for them.  I also have the bogie wheels and tender wheels all for a Hall class.    They may be collectors items, but I don't really want to collect them.  I would rather sell them or swap them for something I want..    I bought them in 1972 btw..

Rob