woodenhead Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 11 minutes ago, AY Mod said: You're absolutely right; nothing can be changed but it's illuminating to see the deluded mindset of blaming everyone else for it persisting; from him just as much as anyone else. Although the accounts may be finalised, whilst he points the finger elsewhere it's only balanced that it gets pointed back in case he ever has the temerity to resurface and cause any further losses in some form. Deluded or simple brushing off any blame, we've had the Narcissistic tendency highlighted before. I doubt he will be back again, he burnt bridges with both potential employers and with customers (twice). But in case he does try again, can I suggest the following names: DeludedDave DismalDave WasntMeDave DebtorDave DeceptiveDave 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 I wonder if a possible creditor could include himself. I know there was 40k in form of a loan to some party, crowdfunders, don't appear to number more than a few hundred, either that or the vast bulk never put a claim in. Lets say 500 at £200 each = 50K, it still leaves a big gap. It could be what was owed to factories. His business started off with a healthy load of commissions : Kernow, Hattons even some chaps in Dublin to name a few. He could not have asked for a better start. If he was not making a profit in the first 2 years (not really clear from everything published TBH), then he should have known the business wasn't going to work. He first came with a huge program, more akin to giant like Bachmann, many had CADS (wasn't it just a few months between leaving Dapol and starting up solo? If so, how did he get his research and CADs done so fast? and why was he so slow later?). But clearly his finances seem limited to just one program at a time (plus the odd wagon). Year 2 saw more announcements and the class 71 Crowd funder. It seems the latter at least went over the line when Hattons added their versions and the orders for the austerity from Hattons and others were not small either. Again a healthy situation, his business should have been floating like a dream. Then we hit the years whereby the commissions went away, the programs dragged on, and the locos running qualities (I have 6+ of them) had various issues (only the O2s have been Ok with me, the others just don't like my layout or wore out quickly). And a whole bunch of crowdfunding projects started to appear. Again the scale was immense, there were never resources to complete the original program, supporting all these crowd funding projects was not going to be easy either. We are now into year 4/5, and clearly something is wrong. It must have been obvious to him that the ship was sinking. But still digs in further, more projects on top of a load of projects which were barely advancing if at all. In the last year, he very keenly jumps into the APT project. A huge project with no hope of delivery, has all the orders and funds handling transferred away from a shop to him directly (I wonder why?), more woes as the site, paypal, the accountants etc etc cave in. He planted flags in many lands that he could not hold. Other makes quickly filled them. Leading to the IP story in the final dying days of the company. A last desperate and rather pointless hope to try and show he was in the driving seat and if others wanted to take it, he really believed that all this could make others pay. Bit like hiring a taxi to take you to the airport only 2 hours later, you have not left your own drive way. Would you pay to drive the car instead? I don't know what to think. He clearly had strong influencing skills until he disillusioned people. But seemed out of touch with reality. Over promising and under delivering and certainly jumping into far too many programs for which he had little chance of delivery. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2020 2 hours ago, AY Mod said: You're absolutely right; nothing can be changed but it's illuminating to see the deluded mindset of blaming everyone else for it persisting; from him just as much as anyone else. Although the accounts may be finalised, whilst he points the finger elsewhere it's only balanced that it gets pointed back in case he ever has the temerity to resurface and cause any further losses in some form. There is an old saying 'once bitten twice shy' but in this case followers of the model railway hobby have so far been bitten twice. And any sort of reminder which helps folk in the hobby avoid a third potential bite is not to be ignored in my view. 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2020 47 minutes ago, JSpencer said: has all the orders and funds handling transferred away from a shop to him directly (I wonder why?), IIRC this was after Kernow had to refund deposits at their cost (which would not have been a small amount) for one of the projects which stalled (class 17?) I think Durham Trains of Stanley saw this and realised they couldn't carry the risk should the APT fail. Probably one of the best business decisions they will ever make. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) I think Kernow was the Class 74? Anyway, we seem to be picking over the carcass of this dead horse to the point where there can't be much left now. Maybe it is time to give it a decent burial and put it out of our collective miseries? Edited June 8, 2020 by John M Upton 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted June 8, 2020 Moderators Share Posted June 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, John M Upton said: picking over the carcass of this dead horse to the point where there can't be much left now. Believe me, there's plenty more Findus Lasagnes still in it. 59 minutes ago, chris p bacon said: Probably one of the best business decisions they will ever make. A lucky escape rather than an informed strategy I'd say as it played out in a particular way. It was at this point I absolutely flipped with Dave as I was watching the money trail. 11 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BR Blue Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2020 At the APT stage the alarm bells were well and truly ringing. The losses as recorded by the liquidator are not the whole story as has been mentioned - little or no book keeping, the Paypal saga etc. I believe the total is higher. Lots of money accumulated and very little to show for it in terms of products, pre production samples or toolings. Others have shown that crowd funded projects can be successful if properly managed. However I still believe there is a huge gaping hole in the accounts. Factories were not paid so where did the money go? I have my suspicions. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted June 8, 2020 Moderators Share Posted June 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, BR Blue said: so where did the money go? Many places; often warm and sunny ones. 5 1 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 22 hours ago, Markwj said: Bet you he is reading this thread though! Quite possibly. Should we not perhaps bear this in mind? I hope he isn't reading. There is a rather nasty atmosphere. I appreciate that some will feel aggrieved if they have lost their deposits for those models that they applied to and in my opinion, probably have every right to voice their thoughts on this. I don't understand the business side of things, I have plenty enough to worry about already, and accept that he has clearly made some bad decisions, but I doubt he ever meant any harm when he was trying to produce model trains for us to enjoy. Some of these comments are pretty direct and personal in a way that is usually discouraged on this forum. Given that this man has staked a good reputation of designing models and his own career and finances (yes, again, accepting it affected other people financially too) to try to fill holes in the market that we wanted filling, and seems to have lost it all in a very public way, I'm not surprised that he is acting in a defensive manner. Perhaps he is embarrassed or in denial? He'll certainly be upset about it. I don't know Dave, though it appears that many of you do. I only ever had dealings with him online and he was always swift to reply, courteous and helpful. Perhaps that isn't the same experience that others have had on this forum, and in a way, I hope it isn't because it would go some way to explaining why so many seem so excited to kick a man who has seemingly lost it all. Only a few weeks ago there was vociferous defence of a model advertised as 'museum quality' that didn't quite live up to others' expectations in terms of design or quality control. Those who were not satisfied were told that compromise is to be accepted, and were reminded that the design and production process were difficult, whilst being asked not to point out the errors that had already been pointed out. Yet now there is open mocking of an actual individual human being, with clear hope that he is reading the less than pleasant words. Something doesn't feel quite right about that. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2020 34 minutes ago, AY Mod said: Many places; often warm and sunny ones. Luton? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, AY Mod said: Many places; often warm and sunny ones. 38 minutes ago, spamcan61 said: Luton? No, that's Sunni..... 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Markwj Posted June 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 8, 2020 4 hours ago, AY Mod said: Believe me, there's plenty more Findus Lasagnes still in it. A lucky escape rather than an informed strategy I'd say as it played out in a particular way. It was at this point I absolutely flipped with Dave as I was watching the money trail. Are you suggesting there is more to discover in this particularly sorry tale (lasagne comment) and what was Dave"s reaction to the 'flip'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 17 hours ago, AY Mod said: in case he ever has the temerity to resurface and cause any further losses in some form. Unfortunately Andy, I think we both know that's more than likely going to happen. This crook has proved it time and time again. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 12 hours ago, Torn-on-the-platform said: Quite possibly. Should we not perhaps bear this in mind? I hope he isn't reading. There is a rather nasty atmosphere. I appreciate that some will feel aggrieved if they have lost their deposits for those models that they applied to and in my opinion, probably have every right to voice their thoughts on this. I don't understand the business side of things, I have plenty enough to worry about already, and accept that he has clearly made some bad decisions, but I doubt he ever meant any harm when he was trying to produce model trains for us to enjoy. Some of these comments are pretty direct and personal in a way that is usually discouraged on this forum. Given that this man has staked a good reputation of designing models and his own career and finances (yes, again, accepting it affected other people financially too) to try to fill holes in the market that we wanted filling, and seems to have lost it all in a very public way, I'm not surprised that he is acting in a defensive manner. Perhaps he is embarrassed or in denial? He'll certainly be upset about it. I don't know Dave, though it appears that many of you do. I only ever had dealings with him online and he was always swift to reply, courteous and helpful. Perhaps that isn't the same experience that others have had on this forum, and in a way, I hope it isn't because it would go some way to explaining why so many seem so excited to kick a man who has seemingly lost it all. Only a few weeks ago there was vociferous defence of a model advertised as 'museum quality' that didn't quite live up to others' expectations in terms of design or quality control. Those who were not satisfied were told that compromise is to be accepted, and were reminded that the design and production process were difficult, whilst being asked not to point out the errors that had already been pointed out. Yet now there is open mocking of an actual individual human being, with clear hope that he is reading the less than pleasant words. Something doesn't feel quite right about that. I'm sorry, but you are way off the mark with your assumptions. This character has proved time and time again through failed projects, pie in the sky promises, and many many other failings that these are not just unfortunate errors or poorly timed business decisions. He knew what he was doing. Believe me there are many in the trade who would like some time alone in a locked room with this individual. 5 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arran Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Durham Trains was stung for a few K he told me but at least he wasn't in to deep . That reminds me !! I must book my holidays to the Galapagos islands Regards Arran 6 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted June 9, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Torn-on-the-platform said: Quite possibly. Should we not perhaps bear this in mind? I hope he isn't reading. There is a rather nasty atmosphere. I appreciate that some will feel aggrieved if they have lost their deposits for those models that they applied to and in my opinion, probably have every right to voice their thoughts on this. I don't understand the business side of things, I have plenty enough to worry about already, and accept that he has clearly made some bad decisions, but I doubt he ever meant any harm when he was trying to produce model trains for us to enjoy. Some of these comments are pretty direct and personal in a way that is usually discouraged on this forum. Given that this man has staked a good reputation of designing models and his own career and finances (yes, again, accepting it affected other people financially too) to try to fill holes in the market that we wanted filling, and seems to have lost it all in a very public way, I'm not surprised that he is acting in a defensive manner. Perhaps he is embarrassed or in denial? He'll certainly be upset about it. I don't know Dave, though it appears that many of you do. I only ever had dealings with him online and he was always swift to reply, courteous and helpful. Perhaps that isn't the same experience that others have had on this forum, and in a way, I hope it isn't because it would go some way to explaining why so many seem so excited to kick a man who has seemingly lost it all. Only a few weeks ago there was vociferous defence of a model advertised as 'museum quality' that didn't quite live up to others' expectations in terms of design or quality control. Those who were not satisfied were told that compromise is to be accepted, and were reminded that the design and production process were difficult, whilst being asked not to point out the errors that had already been pointed out. Yet now there is open mocking of an actual individual human being, with clear hope that he is reading the less than pleasant words. Something doesn't feel quite right about that. I'm sorry but the maker of the "nasty atmosphere" is the person who took folks money and didn't provide the goods . BR Blue in the post pretty much states it as it is . Inadequate bookkeeping . The liquidator did his bit to satisfy his legal obligations , but I suspect this is not the full story . We really still don't know how much money in totality was involved and more importantly where it went. I'd have hoped he would have been reported for failure to keep proper books and records , but this hasn't been done. Maybe there's just not enough proof . Still have this feeling he got away with it Edited June 9, 2020 by Legend 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUCKOO LINE Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 It does make you wonder though if he really had all the commitments he claimed to APT, but I guess we will never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 18 hours ago, chris p bacon said: IIRC this was after Kernow had to refund deposits at their cost (which would not have been a small amount) for one of the projects which stalled (class 17?) I think Durham Trains of Stanley saw this and realised they couldn't carry the risk should the APT fail. Probably one of the best business decisions they will ever make. It was the class 74, I had one or order. But was very relieved the day Kernow did us all a big favor after so many years of little action. Partly from the money point of view (they really did not need to give us extra points to spend... but what integrity the shop has) and partly because the 71 was not really a practical loco on the layout (DJMs 71 constantly derailed with the stiff no down play bogies, while Hornby's would run anywhere and romp away with anything, even the complex Kernow Bulleid diesel runs flawlessly on my layout). And I was not keen on having 2 useless models. 5 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Are we there yet? .... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AY Mod Posted June 9, 2020 Moderators Popular Post Share Posted June 9, 2020 18 hours ago, Torn-on-the-platform said: I appreciate that some will feel aggrieved if they have lost their deposits for those models that they applied to and in my opinion, probably have every right to voice their thoughts on this. I don't understand the business side of things, I have plenty enough to worry about already, and accept that he has clearly made some bad decisions, but I doubt he ever meant any harm when he was trying to produce model trains for us to enjoy. I appreciate that if you're on the fringe it may seem somewhat brutal but the strength of feeling is because this was not just an instance of misfortune, adverse circumstances and best efforts being insufficient to succeed. It became a problem of mismanagement, adversarial stances and insufficient effort to resolve problems. It's important that the problem areas are addressed in isolation rather than in general to save damage to those who are doing it properly; e.g. crowd-funding, communications and relations with Chinese vendors etc. It needs to be seen as a DJM problem rather than a crowd-funding problem or a Chinese vendor problem. 15 hours ago, Markwj said: what was Dave"s reaction to the 'flip'? Pretty much as you'd expect; bluster and statements which can now be subsequently evidenced as total balls. 10 7 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted June 9, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, atom3624 said: Are we there yet? .... Just round the next corner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomJ Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Don’t stop please! I’m on lockdown at home and this is provide today’s reading. Keep it coming! 2 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUCKOO LINE Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 10 pages is a bit short for RMWEBbers 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted June 9, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2020 On 07/06/2020 at 19:22, Colin_McLeod said: Done. Your post appears to have been removed. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted June 9, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, petethemole said: Your post appears to have been removed. Very quickly... It wasn't there Monday when I looked for it. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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