DJ Models: company wound-up and liquidation closed

[tomparryharry]

10 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

We are 15 pages in to a discussion on a dead parrot firm. A quarter page wouldn't do the job and would be followed by endless arguments that someone's view hadn't been properly represented. And that's before you have people, as has happened on another DJM thread, suggesting the press should be liable for some of the lost money because they reported his announcements. It's a no win situation.

 

 

In this situation, Dave Jones was doing everything he could to hide the fact he was trading whilst insolvent. Any queries (including mine) would be met with "we're doing OK, Mate, working hard on the APT".  Little wonder, therefore, that when the bubble did burst the fallout was extensive. Having a failing business is one thing, but not coming clean about it was another. Reporters can only report when they are told that something (whatever that something is) is going on.  Fraud is/was being perpetrated on the public at large: You're not about to broadcast that on any news channel!

 

The annoying thing is that with a little bit of mental application & openness, he could have steered  his way through this.  I've written in the past on this forum to give him a fair chance. It looks like I was also taken in. 

 

Still, I've still got a Kitmaster Austerity. I'll think I'll paint it Norwegian Blue.

[PMP]

8 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Any links? I may have to eat humble pie if I can be convinced.

Set the table for one, put the dinner on, and maybe use the time to find the posts. They are/were there.

Of course you’ll have to wade through all the bog ostrich posts like this from the fanboys to find the ones that actually mean something.

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Still, I've still got a Kitmaster Austerity. I'll think I'll paint it Norwegian Blue.

 

,and nail it to the track?

 

Mike

[Markwj]

I do recall some of the nthusiast resprays fall out and Dave offering to pay out those customers who had not received the models and he claimed to have lost details etc - it’s all so familiar now but it’s so easy with hindsight! It all seemed so genuine and he was trying to put things right so you give the benefit off the doubt.

Part of the difficulty now is that other start ups get a harder time and more scrutiny (which may not be a bad thing) but through no fault of their own.

Live and learn eh!

[tomparryharry]

5 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

,and nail it to the track?

 

Mike

 

Sorry Mike, we're out of stock, but I can let you have a fish.... 

[Hal Nail]

13 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Part of the difficulty now is that other start ups get a harder time and more scrutiny (which may not be a bad thing) but through no fault of their own.

I've said before there should be some regulation (specifically for crowd funding). You will always get individuals who willfully or otherwise, arent very good and that is why you have mechanisms to protect people from them.

 

Charities, which are afterall supposed to be there for pure reasons, have to account for their different sources of funds and spend against those specific donations separately.

 

I don't see why crowd funding should be fundamentally different.

 

Those already doing this properly, or intending to, would benefit from the extra confidence from consumers.

[jcm@gwr]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

It's about time this thread was closed down, the film is already five hours long!

 

Mike.

 

Disagree, it needs to be allowed to carry on and run out of steam at it's own pace.

No'one is being offensive or libellous, and I think it's a valuable place for those who

have suffered a loss, to let off steam, vocalise their disappointment, etc.

 

It's also quite amusing, and educational, for us outsiders, to see what he got up to,

and how we might be more aware of similar situations in the future. 

[pheaton]

51 minutes ago, PMP said:

Set the table for one, put the dinner on, and maybe use the time to find the posts. They are/were there.

Of course you’ll have to wade through all the bog ostrich posts like this from the fanboys to find the ones that actually mean something.

 

 

 

 

My view is that DJmodels we're successful in that they bought at least 3 products to the market, so it wasn't a complete failure, I dont own any of those models, so I can't comment on there quality and or issues, but using the 71 I did read the review it wasn't too bad, the only competitor was the Hornby one and I think they both had faults which traded off against each other.

 

However, as PMP notes he did have a god like following....

 

there was to me a number of early red flags, like the accounts appeared to be done internally (an external entity doing your accounts normally put there identity on the document) now there is nothing wrong with this....but it does mean that there was no-one else looking at the books....and that means no one else would have been able to flag issues.... finally the balance sheet never reflected any ownership of tooling nor did it appear to reflect the movement of money that would fund such tooling....the figures were just too low, however it was maintained the nefarious Chinese were holding on to assets that didnt belong to them..... if he genuinely thought they were his,  would this not have been reflected on the balance sheet, but of course...lets not forget that overstating your assets is very naughty thing to do!

 

The PayPal saga...may well have been true....again I didn't buy any of his products, but if....if the PayPal account is a personal one,  (email address was a big giveaway) if it exceeds a certain value within a period of time, It will trigger anti money laundering checks....pay-pal followed the law....yet at the time they were being branded as nasty people I seem to recall...when he couldn't pay all of the money back...he gave various explanations for. However a personal PayPal account for a registered company???????????? another red flag...

 

And remember...by paying your money to a personal PayPal..account you are paying the individual....Dave wasn't a sole trader...he was a ltd liability company.....

 

This was coupled with the faulty advice about section 75 protection with PayPal...which I directly challenged him about.

 

finally the IP saga I believe was a vain attempt to increase the value of his remaining assets to keep his business solvent, I dont believe he was trading while insolvent, you are only insolvent when a creditor petitions for your insolvency, or presents a bill you cannot pay neither actually happened he wound up voluntarily, He could have applied for administration, but obviously he didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by pheaton

[chris p bacon]

25 minutes ago, Markwj said:

Part of the difficulty now is that other start ups get a harder time and more scrutiny (which may not be a bad thing) but through no fault of their own.

 

I don't see it as a difficulty and any scrutiny is usually because a red flag is waving, even if only at half mast.

 

If a start up has a clear idea of what they want to do, have done their research, know what the costs are going to be and how they're going to fund it, then any questions can be answered clearly and with confidence.  Part of the problem you see is over confidence when the Expressions of interest start rolling in and the £'s start to add up, at that point other projects get announced which creates more hype and so the circle starts.

 

At present there is a start up that is a fair way through to production of its first model but in the meantime has announced 6 other locomotives plus wagons, some of which have been announced with a fanfare and printed magazine adverts but then promptly disappear. When this happens it shows there is no clear plan or research, but more of a scattergun approach to follow the £'s and wish lists. 

 

 

[John M Upton]

There is one thing I am curious about.  One of the reasons why I took a keen interest in DJM when he started was the Dapol Clas 52 Western (OO) which he gave the impression was solely his baby, his masterpiece if you like and to give him his due, it was probably one of the best RTR OO scale locos I have ever had the pleasure of owning.

 

Looking back, was he just the public face of the Dapol Western, the mouthpiece and was taking all the credit?

 

Why, given that he was so 'succesful' with the Western did he leave Dapol so suddenly?  Did he jump or was he pushed?

[chris p bacon]

4 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

 DJM .... was taking all the credit

 

 he .. was .. pushed

 

You made a few typos ....all done now..

[pheaton]

4 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

There is one thing I am curious about.  One of the reasons why I took a keen interest in DJM when he started was the Dapol Clas 52 Western (OO) which he gave the impression was solely his baby, his masterpiece if you like and to give him his due, it was probably one of the best RTR OO scale locos I have ever had the pleasure of owning.

 

Looking back, was he just the public face of the Dapol Western, the mouthpiece and was taking all the credit?

 

Why, given that he was so 'succesful' with the Western did he leave Dapol so suddenly?  Did he jump or was he pushed?

do anybody at Hornby, Bachman, Heljan, and the vast amounts of worldwide model companies behave the same way?

 

it should be noted that this only came out after he left Dapol....I dont think he would have got away with such claims if he was still employed...I find it very difficult to believe there wasn't a team of people behind the western....and each played there own unique part...and without which the model wouldn't have been possible....

 

as to why he left...only Dave and Dapol know the answer to that one!

[jcm@gwr]

7 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

 

Why, given that he was so 'succesful' with the Western did he leave Dapol so suddenly?  Did he jump or was he pushed?

 

Or he thought he could make his fortune by doing it himself, by cutting out all the people that 

made money off his brilliance, in other words, his own delusions caused him to leave.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Flagging properly would have meant something on a DJM OO and N threads along the lines of "before spending your money have a read about Dave Jones's venture called N'thusiast resprays and how it went belly up."

 

There was no proper flagging along those lines and no reason for an OO modeller to make any link between Dj Models and N'thusiast resprays unless it was specifically pointed out.

 

All we got were comments like  "I don't pay for anything until I've read positive reviews" much too subtle to be seen as flagging the problem.

 

 

Your opening point is,  of course, exactly what can't happen because who ever puts that in the public arena is immediately, possibly quite rightly,  open to accusations of libel etc.  Hence anything which could be said had to be much more subtle and carefully restricted to facts available in the public arena to anyone who cared to look - hence I made the point several times about exactly what DJM had achieved in terms of bringing own label models to market compared with what had, at various times been promised or talked up in glowing terms and of delivery achieved against promised timescales.

 

If you are aware, or have heard of, a lot more than that sort of information it is essential to bite your tongue and tie down your typing finger.  And it's also all too easy to start off falsely founded rumours which again can lead to incorrect or exaggerated perceptions.   incidentally I found it quite difficult to understand the source of the hostility of various N gauge/2mm scale modellers towards the new DJM set-up as they seemed to be very wary of it and distrusted it but weren't saying why - hence I too wonder of I missed a key early post about N'thusiast Resprays (although there were definitely some later).

[PMP]

36 minutes ago, pheaton said:

I find it very difficult to believe there wasn't a team of people behind the western....and each played there own unique part...and without which the model wouldn't have been possible....

Whilst not disparaging the Dapol team and their subcontractors, I seem to remember a good part of prototype research and data (And for the 22), was provided by the hive mind of RMWeb, and others privately.

 

[pheaton]

Absolutely pmp, but you prove my point...it wasn't just one man 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

In this situation, Dave Jones was doing everything he could to hide the fact he was trading whilst insolvent. Any queries (including mine) would be met with "we're doing OK, Mate, working hard on the APT".  Little wonder, therefore, that when the bubble did burst the fallout was extensive. Having a failing business is one thing, but not coming clean about it was another. Reporters can only report when they are told that something (whatever that something is) is going on.  Fraud is/was being perpetrated on the public at large: You're not about to broadcast that on any news channel!

 

The annoying thing is that with a little bit of mental application & openness, he could have steered  his way through this.  I've written in the past on this forum to give him a fair chance. It looks like I was also taken in. 

 

Still, I've still got a Kitmaster Austerity. I'll think I'll paint it Norwegian Blue.

We don't actually know in legal terms if he was trading while insolvent (which it seems comes under two different headings) and if he was allegedly trading under either of those headings it might be the subject of either criminal prosecution or a civil case to prove the allegation.  On the other hand it might just be left as not worth pursuing even should there be considered to be anything in the allegation.  Similarly we don't know if any money paid to the company for any particular purpose was used for something else and again that would require detailed examination of the. various accounts should anyone care to make such an accusation to the proper authorities.  And we don't know the contents of the report on the conduct of the director of the company submitted by the liquidator or indeed the extent to which their examination of records went in order to compile that report. 

 

While it is obviously of serious import to those who had paid money to the company and failed to get anything for that money, especially if they never got their money back, in terms of a company crash and liquidation it is all pretty small beer and yet another small company going under.    In 2019 there were 17, 196 company insolvencies but during 2018/19 (so not absolutely aligned) there were only 1,242 director disqualified.   I can't find a figure for the number prosecuted but suspect it was pretty small and prosecutions can be bought not only in respect of insolvent trading but also by HMRC for various irregularities when it comes to both VAT and personal taxation.  

 

All we do know, from published facts, is that his business failed and was forced into liquidation after at least one creditor sought repayment of a debt.   As far as the public arena is concerned we are talking only about a director of a company which went into liquidation - nothing more or less than that. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that in historical terms, there would not be much doubt that the company was "trading while insolvent". Trouble is that the law is slow to react to cultural change. I doubt if crowdfunding has been absorbed into the law yet.

But I agree with Mike that this is too small a case financially to draw much interest from the authorities.

[grahame]

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

Why, given that he was so 'succesful' with the Western did he leave Dapol so suddenly?  Did he jump or was he pushed?

 

I seem to recall that George (Dapol's then MD and Dave's mentor) left or was due to leave/retire at that time (due to age, not anything nefarious) and a new management regime installed. Maybe that had some bearing.

 

 

[Legend]

2 hours ago, pheaton said:

 

 

And remember...by paying your money to a personal PayPal..account you are paying the individual....Dave wasn't a sole trader...he was a ltd liability company.....

 

I think Pheatons overall post is spot on , but it’s the point I’m quoting here that I think is of most interest.  I do wonder just what proportion of monies sent to him went through the company that was eventually liquidated . The liquidator really only dealt with that . I wonder if the scale of loss from folks sending him money that didn’t go through company was actually greater . I remain disappointed he wasn’t prosecuted for failing to keep proper books and records . Presumably the liquidator was satisfied on that point . Still have this nagging doubt he got away with it. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Legend

[Roy L S]

4 hours ago, pheaton said:

 

 

 

finally the IP saga I believe was a vain attempt to increase the value of his remaining assets to keep his business solvent, I dont believe he was trading while insolvent, you are only insolvent when a creditor petitions for your insolvency, or presents a bill you cannot pay neither actually happened he wound up voluntarily, He could have applied for administration, but obviously he didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My understanding was that a business becomes insolvent when unable to pay it's liabilities as they fall due, it does not require a petitioning creditor or formal process to be initiated before a business is considered insolvent, however IF the position is not corrected by (e.g.) a cash injection they should not continue to trade and an insolvency process is then initiated, be it Administration or whatever.

 

If the directors knowingly continue to trade an insolvent business they can then become personally liable.

[Covkid]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

All we do know, from published facts, is that his business failed and was forced into liquidation after at least one creditor sought repayment of a debt.   As far as the public arena is concerned we are talking only about a director of a company which went into liquidation - nothing more or less than that. 

 

I disagree with that second sentence Mike. We are talking about the director of the company which took quite a few people (who trusted him) for a rather long and bumpy ride. But he also used social media and online forums in a way few other comparable businesses have. 

 

Obviously he won't be the first and certainly not the last, and as a victim of a scamming many years ago i tend to live by the adage of "if it sounds too good to be true then it very probably is". Having sat back and thought about it, did the RMwebbers on here serious expect the plethora of APT variants from Dave Jones ?  

 

So we are not talking "only" Mike, we are talking about a chap who may appear to have innocently fallen victim to a poorly run business and a cash flow problem yadda yadda, but we have seen the previous form in these threads, and really actually know the truth don't we ? 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Covkid
punctuation

[JSpencer]

To me it seemed that he was flicking spaghetti hoping something would stick and take off. But looking at the number of claimants, it seems that all his crowd funding projects were under subscribed. What was he hoping with the APT? A chance to turn around the rest? Even that does not seem to have had the numbers needed. And when it should have been obvious to himself that there was no hope, it was finished, why embark on such a massive project? And why all those expensive voyages in business class?

 

Sorry even some rough and ready maths shows that money from crowdfunding won't support business class trips for very long, let alone get something delivered.

 

There are only 2 conclusions really, either this was run with complete incompetence or something sinister was up. 

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I think Pheatons overall post is spot on , but it’s the point I’m quoting here that I think is of most interest.  I do wonder just what proportion of monies sent to him went through the company that was eventually liquidated . The liquidator really only dealt with that . I wonder if the scale of loss from folks sending him money that didn’t go through company was actually greater . I remain disappointed he wasn’t prosecuted for failing to keep proper books and records . Presumably the liquidator was satisfied on that point . Still have this nagging doubt he got away with it. 

Don't forget that in the public arena all the liquidator has done so far is carry out and complete, subject toi final confirmations, the winding up of the company.  The liquidator is bound to privately submit a report regarding the behaviour of any directors to the relevant authority, i don't know if such reports are ever published or if the official Gazette simply records disqualkification of directors?   In adition should company money have been going to an individual there might well be matters there for HMRC to investigate should they be aware, or have been made aware, of any such suspicions and their investigations - if they actually carry out any - will no doubt take some time and are only likely to become public knowledge in event of either a claim through the courts against what they calculate as debts owed to them or any prosecution by them.  And those outcomes may not become apparent for some time to come, if they ever happen.

[tomparryharry]

On 13/06/2020 at 12:39, Half-full said:

Hmmm, I'm starting to get doubts now.

 

Surely he cant be doing anything untowards?  I've built up a great relationship with him over 2 emails, he refers to me as his mate.

Dear D. Luded,

 

How are you, 'Mate'? I'm very sorry that your model locomotive (Which one? ) was delayed, but one of Hannibal's elephants trod on the last one. 

 

Still, there's still time to take part in our crowd-funded experience:- Become a part-owner in a Phantom* jet! Yes! For just £50,000 you can get a ringside seat as we* take off in an all expenses trip of a lifetime! Our unbelievable deal offers you a choice of seats, and get to watch the fantastic spectacle as we* fly all the way to our nearest off-shore tax haven!

 

Book today!

 

* We means 'I'. 

 

* You can make what you like of the word Phantom.