Jump to content
 

DJ Models: company wound-up and liquidation closed


BR(S)
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold
15 hours ago, Clearwater said:

This discussion is focusing on the crowd funding, for understandable reasons.  However, at the outset, he had a different business model and arguably one that could have worked.   Working as the intermediary for retailers like Hattons and Kernow could have provided a stable income whilst he developed his own portfolio.  Clearly something went wrong with those relationships and they were terminated.  It’s notable that the original Kernow press release referenced DJM but later versions don’t as they insourced the work.  Hatton’s had the King debacle... it’s also quite noticeable how may DJM models were produced by Hornby - I can think of three off the top of my head.

 

Going it alone is tough.  Dave has a certain charisma - hence this thread has run 17 pages.  He needed someone to manage him, keep him to deadlines, ration the cash etc.  Clearly we don’t know, some people may have an insight, but there’s no evidence of him behaving like a business man.  Why not team up with Oxford or a retailer?  Derisk and split the profits.  Maybe he tried and there own diligence established that there were better options for them.

Yes, he very definitely started with a different business model but for whatever reason he simply could not hack it - it really appeared to be  as simple as that.  I was involved in one such project doing a lot of detail research but I knew some of what was going on in terms of communicationg via DJ with the factory and it was absolutelty abysmal.  If anybody treated a customer paying for services far less than he was paid it would be a miracle if they remained a customer for very long.  

 

OK, so maybe a particular incident is is a bit of bad luck due to various problems so we'll keep trying.  But there comes a time when no customer can keep their business solvent when using somebody who - to put it bluntly - consistently fails to deliver in an accurate and timely manner and whose interest in any particular commission seems to decline as work progresses.  I won't betray any confidences about the way he dealt with customers so can only talk about what I saw with my own eyes and on that basis I wouldn't give him any business, or any of my money, at all.

 

Once his original concept revenue stream had died - at his own hands if what I saw is indicative - he only had two chances.  Either find new customers (but word no doubt gets around?) or look for another source of income, sorry, er,  business model.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 2
  • Thanks 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
57 minutes ago, TomJ said:

At work today as a doctor this was my new visor!177481E6-505E-4AA1-9E49-DB3E84202A14.jpeg.189d928663d816e03b922e6155c67b6d.jpeg

is this his new venture?

 

Setting higher standards in PPE?

 

 

More transparent than his business arrangements

 

 

  • Funny 19
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

But there comes a time when no customer can keep their business solvent when using somebody who - to put it bluntly - consistently fails to deliver in an accurate and timely manner and whose interest in any particular commission seems to decline as work progresses.  I won't betray any confidences about the way he dealt with customers so can only talk about what I saw with my own eyes and on that basis I wouldn't give him any business, or any of my money, at all.

 

It seems pretty obvious to me that Kernow, Hattons etc all fairly rapidly, simply "wised up" to this character.

I'm not laying any blame here but it is a great pity that more direct warnings could not have been made public (legal action and so forth).

Unfortunately, the few who did give warning were just shouted down - how could 'official' credence be given while DJ was still operating? There would have been rapid threats of legal action followed by hordes of baying fanboys.

 

If one thing is to be learnt from this sorry saga, it is that people should not rush to judgement - one way or the other.

  • Like 4
  • Agree 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
37 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

It seems pretty obvious to me that Kernow, Hattons etc all fairly rapidly, simply "wised up" to this character.

I'm not laying any blame here but it is a great pity that more direct warnings could not have been made public (legal action and so forth).

Unfortunately, the few who did give warning were just shouted down - how could 'official' credence be given while DJ was still operating? There would have been rapid threats of legal action followed by hordes of baying fanboys.

 

If one thing is to be learnt from this sorry saga, it is that people should not rush to judgement - one way or the other.

I started the thread linked below to try to sound some warnings although clearly all too obviously not specifically about DJM although reading between the lines of quite a number of posts from various people I think there was an inference there even in the first couple of pages.  And definitely some important things to consider if spending your money that way. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133839-crowdfunding-or-minimising-risk/&tab=comments#comment-3151333

 

But in the purely DJM area of various project threads anyone could only draw attention to widely known facts - especially the record of achievement/non achievement on 'own label' models.   I would have thought that drawing attention to that record might have sounded warnings in respect of a model being produced under a different route of financing because when it came down to it all that was different was where the money was coming from with no business plan to indicate the detail of how it would be spent apart from some vague looking 'promises'.   But the cleverness of it all was the 'big idea' which could, and would, draw people in.  And of course once somebody's mind is made up, especially if they have committed money, it is difficult to shake their faith in what they have committed to themselves to. 

 

Another problem is that most folk have little idea of the detail and costs of various stages of the process and don't have the faintest idea of the nature of the contract - or even if there is one - between the person they are placing money with and the factory which will be designing and making the whatever.  Or what various other people in the chain, such as a scanning company, will be doing and what they will be charging for that.  Surely a pertinent question would be that if you have somebody who previously made their income from a commissioning business what would that person be 'charging' against something such as a crowdfunded process?  How else would they make any income except possibly by some very expensive research work or would they still charge commission at their previous rate?   

Edited by The Stationmaster
  • Like 5
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Once his original concept revenue stream had died - at his own hands if what I saw is indicative - he only had two chances.  Either find new customers (but word no doubt gets around?) or look for another source of income, sorry, er,  business model.

 

Or shut up shop early and write the experience off as a bad idea.

 

IF his interest for the projects themselves dissipated over time to the point that basically he was not working on them then he should have recognized it and moved on to something else.

 

I've been busy making working replicas of film props in my spare time (my avatar image is a steel functional replica of Wonder Woman's shield). People tell me I should make them to sell. But I know I don't mind doing this as a one off for myself however I am not sure if I would find the time and motivation to make them for others (the shield from start to end took 6 months to make but only because I was working one evening every couple of weeks with the odd afternoon thrown in here and there). 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
59 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

It seems pretty obvious to me that Kernow, Hattons etc all fairly rapidly, simply "wised up" to this character.

I'm not laying any blame here but it is a great pity that more direct warnings could not have been made public (legal action and so forth).

Unfortunately, the few who did give warning were just shouted down - how could 'official' credence be given while DJ was still operating? There would have been rapid threats of legal action followed by hordes of baying fanboys.

 

If one thing is to be learnt from this sorry saga, it is that people should not rush to judgement - one way or the other.

you have to be very careful in that scenario, we dont know what actually occurred between hattons, Kernow, and DJM,  you can't write/communicate something bad about someone just because a particular deal went south, that lands you in very hot water.

Edited by pheaton
  • Agree 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I started the thread linked below to try to sound some warnings although clearly all too obviously not specifically about DJM although reading between the lines of quite a number of posts from various people I think there was an inference there even in the first couple of pages.  And definitely some important things to consider if spending your money that way. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133839-crowdfunding-or-minimising-risk/&tab=comments#comment-3151333

 

But in the purely DJM area of various project threads anyone could only draw attention to widely known facts - especially the record of achievement/non achievement on 'own label' models.   I would have thought that drawing attention to that record might have sounded warnings in respect of a model being produced under a different route of financing because when it came down to it all that was different was where the money was coming from with no business plan to indicate the detail of how it would be spent apart from some vague looking 'promises'.   But the cleverness of it all was the 'big idea' which could, and would, draw people in.  And of course once somebody's mind is made up, especially if they have committed money, it is difficult to shake their faith in what they have committed to themselves to. 

 

Another problem is that most folk have little idea of the detail and costs of various stages of the process and don't have the faintest idea of the nature of the contract - or even if there is one - between the person they are placing money with and the factory which will be designing and making the whatever.  Or what various other people in the chain, such as a scanning company, will be doing and what they will be charging for that.  Surely a pertinent question would be that if you have somebody who previously made their income from a commissioning business what would that person be 'charging' against something such as a crowdfunded process?  How else would they make any income except possibly by some very expensive research work or would they still charge commission at their previous rate?   

One style of funding that DJM used, wasn't really covered in your posts Mike, that was the first two used for the Class 71 and 74. These required full payment up front, not stage payments, however these two projects were backed by Kernow Models, who handled the marketing and funds. In effect they acted as production auditor  releasing payments to a DJM as work progressed. These were the only two that I funded, due to the assurance of having Kernow as fund managers. That paid off when the Class 74 delay after delay occurred with clear fabrication from DJ about cad progress. Kernow decided that the project was not proceeding and seemed to be unhappy about the reasons given, as they decided to refund in total. I received my funding back from Kernow, which I was very grateful for, and I believe they suffered loss as a consequence. 

Some funders may have gained a similar confidence when the initial information about the APT stated it was backed by Durham Trains, and I suspect many believed it would have the similar safety net that Kernow had provided, however then the confusion set in and I recall one communication from DJ about the APT that started with a header stating it was a Durham Trains project and at the end of the flyer was a statement that it was a DJ Models project. That to me was a clear indication that you would be putting your money into something without effective project management or control.

I never understood why Kernow commissioned DJM to progress commissions that had previously  been with Dapol. Kernow had taken projects back from Dapol when they found there had been little or no progress, and after a short period they appointed DJM to take forward, however at the time these projects were with Dapol, Dave Jones was the product development manager, and must have been responsible for progressing commissions. Certainly that gave me some assurance about his credibility, with Kernow in effect judging that he had not been responsible for the lack of progress while at Dapol and giving him the work.

Edited by rembrow
Clarification
  • Like 3
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, rembrow said:

I never understood why Kernow commissioned DJM to progress commissions that had previously  been with Dapol. Kernow had taken projects back from Dapol when they found there had been little or no progress, and after a short period they appointed DJM to take forward, however at the time these projects were with Dapol, Dave Jones was the product development manager, and must have been responsible for progressing commissions. Certainly that gave me some assurance about his credibility, with Kernow in effect judging that he had not been responsible for the lack of progress while at Dapol and giving him the work.

 

Kernow probably thought that Dapol was responsible for the delays then when DJM started up, they moved it to him. He was on here at the time saying "plenty of production space in the factory".

 

However much later - after the 74s were refunded, Kernow stated in one of their Facebook posts, that they finally took some of their projects in house as both previous suppliers for certain models had done nothing other than wasted time.  They did not state who they were of course.

 

Dave certainly had the gift of the gab to influence people.

 

He was also full of financial advice for Hornby. Lets hope he does not get a chance there.

  • Like 4
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, rembrow said:

I never understood why Kernow commissioned DJM to progress commissions that had previously  been with Dapol. Kernow had taken projects back from Dapol when they found there had been little or no progress, and after a short period they appointed DJM to take forward, however at the time these projects were with Dapol, Dave Jones was the product development manager, and must have been responsible for progressing commissions. Certainly that gave me some assurance about his credibility, with Kernow in effect judging that he had not been responsible for the lack of progress while at Dapol and giving him the work.

 

The reasoning I came up with was that DJM had convinced Kernow he wasn't the issue, but that Dapol or other employees were.

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
8 hours ago, TomJ said:

At work today as a doctor this was my new visor!177481E6-505E-4AA1-9E49-DB3E84202A14.jpeg.189d928663d816e03b922e6155c67b6d.jpeg

is this his new venture?

 

Setting higher standards in PPE?

It'll become less clear ad time goes on :)

  • Like 2
  • Funny 13
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
On 15/06/2020 at 10:40, TomJ said:

At work today as a doctor this was my new visor!177481E6-505E-4AA1-9E49-DB3E84202A14.jpeg.189d928663d816e03b922e6155c67b6d.jpeg

is this his new venture?

 

Setting higher standards in PPE?

Have you tested it for strength, Ive found several of my DJModels are a bit shy on traction.

  • Funny 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
7 hours ago, 5944 said:

Is that the vapour wear that was previously discussed? 

Not sure how clearly you'll see through it.

He was good at creating smoke screens.

 

  • Funny 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 14/06/2020 at 20:32, John M Upton said:

 

Try inserting '...your wallet' into that statement for greater realism....  :D

 

I have to admit that during the Dapol Class 52 Western build up to release, the impression I got from DJ's postings here and elsewhere was that he was the man who was in charge of the company, head honcho, big cheese, choose your cliche...

 

Wasn't there also the tale of woe he spun once about some of his models being nicked from a container on Southampton Docks or something of did I imagine that?

 

EDIT - Found it, 2016 End of Year Report which makes for interesting reading in retrospect:

 

 

Hindsight is wonderful (as is foresight). Published on 1/1/17, the 'End of Year Report 2016' contains many gems, including:

 

"Once the 92 is completed and delivered in both gauges I will not do another crowdfunded model for a good few years until the rather buoyant production and manufacture of assorted models from third parties etc has slowed down or plateau’d. This I think is the sensible approach and one which will allow me to concentrate on getting the back catalog out to you all. Talking of catalog i intend to publish a pdf catalogue in the 1st quarter which will contain some interesting info."

 

 

And then, on 27/11/17, this happened:

 

"Hi everyone,

just started this thread to keep specific chat between the gauges separate.
I'll add details later for the OO version, but it mirrors the N gauge ones exactly apart from the price of course.

Meanwhile you can order using this link..... http://durhamtrainsofstanley.co.uk/my_store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=371

 

Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment.

Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering.

cheers
Dave"

  • Funny 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I think there are two lessons we can learn from this whole saga. If something looks a bit 'spivvy' then it probably is and we need to be careful that we don't want something so much that we blind ourselves to this.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 11
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold

Just wastching the interviews with Hornby and Bachmann for this weekends virtual exhibition and wondered when the time was right (we have put out the flaming torches and the pitchforks are back in the barns) whether an interview with DJ would be possible. Maybe Piers Morgan would do it but where did it go wrong, why did you not call time sooner etc could all be explored?

Just a thought and probably an unwelcome one- sorry!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...