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DJ Models: company wound-up and liquidation closed


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On 22/08/2020 at 16:00, The Johnster said:

It is a fact of life that the sort of people who go into business, any business, are optimists who believe they can make a 'go', and a living out of the profits of, it.  They have positive mindsest, are risk takers, (as are those who invest in them) and self belief, or they wouldn't do it.  They have the idea, do as much research and arithmetic as they can to back it up (in some cases perhaps with insufficient critical examination of the results), and take the results to venture capitalist or bank for a loan to set themselves up and start whatever it is that they are going to do.  

 

This point is where future problems can be rooted IMHO,  The venture capitalist is not expert in the business, but he/she is expert in 'business', and the business' owner inevitably regards the fact that he has been given a capital loan as validation of the potential success and profitability of his venture,  So far so good, but there are personalities (and business personalities tend to be strong and assertive ones to begin with) who do not fully understand that the venture capitalist is taking a punt on the success of their venture, not endorsing it with a guarantee of success.  

 

The venture capitalist, has capital invested in more than one business and will thrive so long as his spread is with enough profitable successful businesses to outweigh any that do not come through with the goods; in other words, he accepts a degree of loss philospophically as the result of his having taken a risk; it's just how life is in the business world and he puts it down to experience, noting not to let this particular business or businessman have any more of his money; he is philosophical, not stupid.  

 

But the company owner, who is remember an optimist, takes it personally.  So when things start going wrong. his self belief will not allow him to give up when he should; he becomes a little arrogant, he's got something to prove now.  He takes on more orders, and borrows more money, to get him through the bad patch which is in fact terminal.  As matters gets worse, his arrogance grows and his level of denial of his problems, which are beginning to look even to him like failure (a thing utterly unconscionable to him) increases.  We are now in a self replicating spiral of events in which each event predictably to everybody except the bloke in charge propagates the next and the business has become a money hole, proceeding on a broken wing and an unanswered prayer.  As the navvies used to say, when you're in a hole, stop digging, but people like this do not have that sort of psychological make-up, and can't, and the final collapse is better faced sooner than later.  You can't run anything with 10p in the bank.

 

 

An interesting and, I think, valid summary, Johnster.

 

Back in the long-lost days when I earned my crust as one of the last of the old-style bank managers   the piano-player in a House of Ill Repute (less disgrace about owning-up to that these days!) ... we sometimes had to remind certain customers that we were actually only a 'Lender' to their business, not an 'Investor' in it.

 

Of course, it was always the Bank's fault when the firm eventually went down the tubes; because in the end we were almost always the ones who pulled the plug by refusing to honour any more cheques that had been issued.  Bouncing the monthly pay cheque was usually the reluctantly-taken final step that put the last nail in the coffin.  Of course, we were the Bad Guys - the fact that by this point the business' overdraft was typically more than half as high again as it was supposed to be; and the value of our security was a receding dot in the rear-view mirror of their speeding car; and that we too were a business with shareholders to satisfy ... all that didn't alter where the blame lay in their minds by one single jot.

 

And yet ... and yet ... I still used to have to remind my staff sometimes that those guys were the ones taking the real risks.  If I or my colleagues made a series of bad decisions, we got a bad report, no bonus (not that they ever were much, don't believe the papers) and maybe no more promotions.  The failed businessman lost his livelihood, his income and quite often his home.  Sometimes his marriage and kids too.  With rich rewards come higher risks.

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39 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

 

  If I or my colleagues made a series of bad decisions, we got a bad report, no bonus . . . . . 

 

 

I can still recall one of those reports - I never made anything like 'Manager' in my 25 years riding the Black Horse (72 - 97) but before I became a failed insurance salesman, I did many of the personal loans and  the overdraft control at a small branch where the inspectors said that I was 'over generous at times and has put the Bank at risk' . The 'bonus' was 'profit sharing' in the form of shares which I retained when made redundant - at that time they were worth a fair bit and I said that on retirement, I would have a world cruise - now that I have retired, those shares are virtually worthless and I would be lucky to get a weekend in Skegness . . . . . . . . 

 

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1 hour ago, Willie Whizz said:

I earned my crust as one of the last of the old-style bank managers   the piano-player in a House of Ill Repute (less disgrace about owning-up to that these days!)

 

A comment that put me in mind of Paul Carter's Don't Tell Mum I Work on the Rigs: (She Thinks I'm a Piano Player in a Whorehouse). Definitely quite amusing:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Tell-Mum-Work-Rigs/dp/1857883772/

Edited by truffy
co.uk rather than com
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On 24/08/2020 at 21:53, Mike Bellamy said:

 

I can still recall one of those reports - I never made anything like 'Manager' in my 25 years riding the Black Horse (72 - 97) but before I became a failed insurance salesman, I did many of the personal loans and  the overdraft control at a small branch where the inspectors said that I was 'over generous at times and has put the Bank at risk' . The 'bonus' was 'profit sharing' in the form of shares which I retained when made redundant - at that time they were worth a fair bit and I said that on retirement, I would have a world cruise - now that I have retired, those shares are virtually worthless and I would be lucky to get a weekend in Skegness . . . . . . . . 

 

 

Ah, we share a similar experience, albeit I did make managerial level (not in the branch network though) flying aback an eagle ...

 

I too was made redundant and that was probably the best thing they did for me! I didn't get 'saddled' with any shares from there but have taken a pretty nasty hit from another financial institution which once had a cathedral as its logo.

 

As for Daves 'Phantom' experience if anyone is interested the photostream can still be found at https://www.flickr.com/photos/133333752@N03/with/45047643531/. Interesting user name there. High spec full frame DSLR in use too.

 

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On 08/09/2020 at 17:47, Richard E said:

 

Ah, we share a similar experience, albeit I did make managerial level (not in the branch network though) flying aback an eagle ...

 

I too was made redundant and that was probably the best thing they did for me! I didn't get 'saddled' with any shares from there but have taken a pretty nasty hit from another financial institution which once had a cathedral as its logo.

 

As for Daves 'Phantom' experience if anyone is interested the photostream can still be found at https://www.flickr.com/photos/133333752@N03/with/45047643531/. Interesting user name there. High spec full frame DSLR in use too.

 

Been to Japan too, who paid for that!!!

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On 08/09/2020 at 18:47, Richard E said:

As for Daves 'Phantom' experience if anyone is interested the photostream can still be found at https://www.flickr.com/photos/133333752@N03/with/45047643531/. Interesting user name there. High spec full frame DSLR in use too.

 

No model railway pics??

 

Mike.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Guess. (and I bet you get the right answer - 'business profits')

 

Were there any profits in his business? Wasn't it all punters deposits for products they didn't get?

 

No doubt he considered it 'legitimate business expenses'.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Were there any profits in his business? Wasn't it all punters deposits for products they didn't get?

 

No doubt he considered it 'legitimate business expenses'.

 

 

 

Sadly I think you have hit the nail on the head Grahame, lots of deposits paid = cash in supposedly to finance different models, levels of cash drawn from the business not fully factored into projections for projects or cashflow (if there ever were any such projections). 

 

The word "ponzi" goes briefly through my head except of course that, later cash received in this case didn't even fund earlier investors' models, indeed aside from the said "legitimate business expenses", some CADs and some iffy 3D prints we will never know for certain what the deposits were actually was spent on, although I suspect many have the same thoughts...

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

 

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1 hour ago, grahame said:

 

Were there any profits in his business? Wasn't it all punters deposits for products they didn't get?

 

No doubt he considered it 'legitimate business expenses'.

 

 

I don't think we'll ever know about money going out of the business but look at it this way - at one a stage he was being paid to undertake commission work so in effect there was a 'profit' he could take out of the business which gave him (as with anybody running a business) a level of income.   As many of us know it is very easy to adjust your spending upwards if/when your income increases but it is a lot harder to adjust your spending downwards when your income decreases.  I, like everybody else, don't really know where a lot of seemingly unaccounted for money actually went and the final report from the liquidators makes us no wiser in that respect.  People then might care to draw their own conclusions but it is of course only supposition.  Of course travel could well be a legitimate business expense but that would no doubt have been reflected in tax returns etc.

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On 24/08/2020 at 21:53, Mike Bellamy said:

 

I said that on retirement, I would have a world cruise - now that I have retired, those shares are virtually worthless and I would be lucky to get a weekend in Skegness . . . . . . . . 

 

Sound like you had a lucky escape from a floating incubator of doom

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't think we'll ever know about money going out of the business but look at it this way - at one a stage he was being paid to undertake commission work so in effect there was a 'profit' he could take out of the business which gave him (as with anybody running a business) a level of income.   As many of us know it is very easy to adjust your spending upwards if/when your income increases but it is a lot harder to adjust your spending downwards when your income decreases.  

 

I guess it was the way those cash calls were 'sold'. The impression was that he asked for deposits and stage payments to cover the costs of the next part of development. I presume many would think that the money they paid was to cover those costs rather than to pay for business junkets (although that can't be proven but presumably he did take drawings from the business). And they probably thought that 'profit' would be realised at the end of the  project (when the product was delivered) and could be calculated from the revenue less the total costs.

 

It might be difficult to adjust spending when income decreases but not to do so is irresponsible and incompetent, and maybe foolish. And many are having to do just that now.  Shame Dave didn't.

 

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7 hours ago, Adam88 said:

image.png.519c68e6238bed77b9ed42273ce8f602.png

 

What's wrong with Skegness?

"is so bracing" is a euphemism for "damn cold"! Having lived there for six years it is very cold in winter and not much better most of the time in summer. Only good thing is that it has a good stock car track.

Edited by Chris116
Spelling Mistake!
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15 hours ago, Trains4U said:

 

I didn’t want to be the one to say it...

I only went there to take some photos of signals so I never even left the station.  Looks like I had a lucky escape - not even a decent chippy?   Even Castleford had a decent chippy as I found when photographing signals there.

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