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DJ Models: company wound-up and liquidation closed


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2 hours ago, Legend said:


I think Pheatons overall post is spot on , but it’s the point I’m quoting here that I think is of most interest.  I do wonder just what proportion of monies sent to him went through the company that was eventually liquidated . The liquidator really only dealt with that . I wonder if the scale of loss from folks sending him money that didn’t go through company was actually greater . I remain disappointed he wasn’t prosecuted for failing to keep proper books and records . Presumably the liquidator was satisfied on that point . Still have this nagging doubt he got away with it. 

Don't forget that in the public arena all the liquidator has done so far is carry out and complete, subject toi final confirmations, the winding up of the company.  The liquidator is bound to privately submit a report regarding the behaviour of any directors to the relevant authority, i don't know if such reports are ever published or if the official Gazette simply records disqualkification of directors?   In adition should company money have been going to an individual there might well be matters there for HMRC to investigate should they be aware, or have been made aware, of any such suspicions and their investigations - if they actually carry out any - will no doubt take some time and are only likely to become public knowledge in event of either a claim through the courts against what they calculate as debts owed to them or any prosecution by them.  And those outcomes may not become apparent for some time to come, if they ever happen.

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On 13/06/2020 at 12:39, Half-full said:

Hmmm, I'm starting to get doubts now.

 

Surely he cant be doing anything untowards?  I've built up a great relationship with him over 2 emails, he refers to me as his mate.

Dear D. Luded,

 

How are you, 'Mate'? I'm very sorry that your model locomotive (Which one? ) was delayed, but one of Hannibal's elephants trod on the last one. 

 

Still, there's still time to take part in our crowd-funded experience:- Become a part-owner in a Phantom* jet! Yes! For just £50,000 you can get a ringside seat as we* take off in an all expenses trip of a lifetime! Our unbelievable deal offers you a choice of seats, and get to watch the fantastic spectacle as we* fly all the way to our nearest off-shore tax haven!

 

Book today!

 

* We means 'I'. 

 

* You can make what you like of the word Phantom.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

I disagree with that second sentence Mike. We are talking about the director of the company which took quite a few people (who trusted him) for a rather long and bumpy ride. But he also used social media and online forums in a way few other comparable businesses have. 

 

Obviously he won't be the first and certainly not the last, and as a victim of a scamming many years ago i tend to live by the adage of "if it sounds too good to be true then it very probably is". Having sat back and thought about it, did the RMwebbers on here serious expect the plethora of APT variants from Dave Jones ?  

 

So we are not talking "only" Mike, we are talking about a chap who may appear to have innocently fallen victim to a poorly run business and a cash flow problem yadda yadda, but we have seen the previous form in these threads, and really actually know the truth don't we ? 

That might well turn out to be the case - no argument at all.  But note that I referred only to what, so far,  is in the public domain for the simple reason that we don't know what isn't in the public domain.  Everything else. however aggrieved people might be, and how out of pocket some them undoubtedly are, is at present little more than allegations for which there might not be any evidence in whatever the liquidators have found in the information they have about the company - and don't forget that is basically what they were given.

 

Obviously people have strong personal feelings about this whole business and that does not necessarily exclude me but unless evidence regarding any accusations is proved in a court or through any other successful action by the various relevant authorities nothing is legally proven.  I quite agree that the company, which was clearly  poorly run because it ended up in liquidation, will have had some innocent victims.  The statistics alone tell us that thousands of companies go into liquidation every year and no doubt a very high percentage of them have left innocent victims who placed or paid for orders in good faith and have never received them or lent the business money and so on and it leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth.  But in legal terms that is more or less where things stop in the vast majority of cases.

 

But don't overlook this little chink in the official armour - if you paid money into somebody's personal account, be it Paypal or anywhere else, as part payment for goods that have not been delivered then that person, not the company, is the one who is liable for non-delivery.  If you have documentary proof that such was the case you can go to the Small Claims process - but it costs and there would seem to be a strong chance that you might not get your money back but you can at least ask the court to enforce payment if your claim is judged in your favour.  And if you ask the court to collect the money on your behalf they will send in a bailiff if the money is not forthcoming and they will take from a property whatever they consder necessary to cover the total amounts owed.

 

But overall never overlook the fact that thus far the official process has not finished however HMRC would no doubtr be interested to hear if money allegedly being paid to a business was being paid into a personal account as that might imply somebody was trying to avoid payment of VAT.  

Edited by The Stationmaster
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23 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

You can make what you like of the word Phantom.

 

It's an appropriate plane to have plucked out of the skies as he went to Japan to photograph some of the last ones. The Zenfolio photo album giving the dates was taken down some time ago.

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Pick your thread for a treatment for insomnia.  I chose the class 92 one.  It's a fascinating read reading it all back, particularly because you know how it's going to end.  You see the first mutterings of discontent when he announces that the Class 92 will only be exclusive to crowd funders for a short while.  Just one or two, most people cut him some slack.  Then there is his claim that he hasn't drawn a wage or been reimbursed for out of pocket expenses.  That one seems interesting now.  Tooling for the 92 was to begin in 2016 and he sent PayPal invoices, the model being "totally viable".  More wrath when he outed Revolution's  92 after a private letter.  Shortly after the first invoices were paid, Dave was to be found in the Galapagos islands.  Doesn't hindsight make you wonder.  While he was getting his feet wet, the crowd funding debate sparks off.  On his return, he's already missed his Warley target.  Despite the fully funded totally viable model, cut off for orders is extended. And again. And again.  And then because of upping the specification and the rising China prices, neither model is now viable.

 

If you struggle with narcolepsy I won't spoil the rest, but it truly is fascinating

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This discussion is focusing on the crowd funding, for understandable reasons.  However, at the outset, he had a different business model and arguably one that could have worked.   Working as the intermediary for retailers like Hattons and Kernow could have provided a stable income whilst he developed his own portfolio.  Clearly something went wrong with those relationships and they were terminated.  It’s notable that the original Kernow press release referenced DJM but later versions don’t as they insourced the work.  Hatton’s had the King debacle... it’s also quite noticeable how may DJM models were produced by Hornby - I can think of three off the top of my head.

 

Going it alone is tough.  Dave has a certain charisma - hence this thread has run 17 pages.  He needed someone to manage him, keep him to deadlines, ration the cash etc.  Clearly we don’t know, some people may have an insight, but there’s no evidence of him behaving like a business man.  Why not team up with Oxford or a retailer?  Derisk and split the profits.  Maybe he tried and there own diligence established that there were better options for them.

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It was part of teaming up that caused him problems.  He offered the 92 as a regular run via hattons who listed it at less than the crowd funders were paying.  Understandably, it led the crowd funders to ponder just what exactly they were paying for.  His answer - a certificate and the promise that their model wouldn't be repeated.  Dave just couldn't see that he was losing the confidence of his purchasers.  So he posted this :

 

 

 

If you read the full post, he promised refunds if it didn't go ahead.  

 

The mention of trusts probably reassured some people, but reading the text more closely that it was 'until needed' meant his reassurance in this matter was hot air.   

 

From what I've read of Dave, I don't have the opinion that he's a bad man, more like he is a fantasist.  Dubious awards, standards and timescales.  Sometimes he admits to screwing up, but generally only when it's minor.  It seems like he wants your sympathy or praise.   The posts on the airplane forum were interesting - he teased that he had other photos, clearly wanting people to say 'please post them Dave' and of course he just couldn't resist.  There will be shrinks who could profile him better, but what is clear is that he's finished in model railways.   For his own well being, I hope he can distinguish that model railways are something he should pursue as a hobby and leave it at that.

 

 

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The 92 was the first (and only) model of his I was really interested in, but I quickly jumped ship when Revolution announced theirs. I recall Dave claimed quite quickly that the N gauge one remained viable, and that he’d actually accrued more orders following the announcement of the Revolution one, which seemed utterly implausible at the time, and a total fantasy in hindsight. 

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1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

Working as the intermediary for retailers like Hattons and Kernow could have provided a stable income whilst he developed his own portfolio. 

He had completely the wrong personality for that sort of role, at least for dealing with Far Eastern suppliers; as subsequent events proved.

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On 06/06/2020 at 12:37, tomparryharry said:

 

There is indeed, two sides of this. True, the operation of the  model sometimes fell short of the expectation. It would have been down to Dave Jones to sort it out. Anyone taking this project on will - would have to take positive action to remedy the performance aspects. 

 

As far as decoration is concerned, the artwork is pretty spot-on.  I very nearly missed out on the No 8 variant, as it did sell out that quick, but Hattons would confirm that. On that basis, it's pretty much a dead cert that the other Mountain Ash locomotive (Haulwen No2) would have sold in a similar fashion. and, the MSC variant.

 

Once again, on a personal level, there appears to  be a residual element of goodwill towards the models. The oft quoted view is:- " Good model, but the chassis......"

 

Ian. 

I bought the ‘RMweb’ special edition as I thought the association with with this site would produce a good result. While it wasn’t bad, it did not meet the ‘setting higher standards’ claim in my opinion. For me, the ungainly injector moulding was especially disappointing, for example 

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3 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It's an appropriate plane to have plucked out of the skies as he went to Japan to photograph some of the last ones. The Zenfolio photo album giving the dates was taken down some time ago.

They started being phased out from 2018, with the last airframes to be retired by the end of this year - does that tie in?

 

(Im currently building an F4S Phantom kit, my favourite aircraft)

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21 hours ago, pheaton said:

I find it very difficult to believe there wasn't a team of people behind the western.... and each played there own unique part...and without which the model wouldn't have been possible....

A team which he thought he could do without,

until he was out on his own and began to realise

what the rest of that team did.

 

As has previously been said, he's not the first one

to be part of an organisation, thinking they could do

what they're doing, on their own, and do it better,

ignoring the contribution others in the team are making.

 

I thought about doing it more than once during my working life

 

 

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12 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

He had completely the wrong personality for that sort of role, at least for dealing with Far Eastern suppliers; as subsequent events proved.


Don’t disagree.  My point is that there was a viable business model to act as a project manager to a number of retailers whilst developing your own portfolio.  I don’t think that gap exists anymore as some of those larger retailers now have their own capabilities.  If you’d managed say 3 commissions a year, for a fee of £20k a piece, it would give you a solid income to underpin your other ventures.

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6 hours ago, Legend said:


I think Pheatons overall post is spot on , but it’s the point I’m quoting here that I think is of most interest.  I do wonder just what proportion of monies sent to him went through the company that was eventually liquidated . The liquidator really only dealt with that . I wonder if the scale of loss from folks sending him money that didn’t go through company was actually greater . I remain disappointed he wasn’t prosecuted for failing to keep proper books and records . Presumably the liquidator was satisfied on that point . Still have this nagging doubt he got away with it. 

I suspect he did and he isn’t the first and won’t be the last. Prosecutions only tend to happen when very large sums are involved and there is clear evidence, with a high probability of a conviction. Disqualification as a director is the route more often taken, but I’m aware of one business (not in our hobby) whose funding and spending methods were very similar. When that company failed, in similar circumstances,  the very many employees lost their jobs, and in at least one case, their house. Despite everything the directors ‘got away with it’ and one even went off and started a similar business. As ever, it’s buyer beware. 

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It seems like he wants your sympathy or praise.

 

Try inserting '...your wallet' into that statement for greater realism....  :D

 

I have to admit that during the Dapol Class 52 Western build up to release, the impression I got from DJ's postings here and elsewhere was that he was the man who was in charge of the company, head honcho, big cheese, choose your cliche...

 

Wasn't there also the tale of woe he spun once about some of his models being nicked from a container on Southampton Docks or something of did I imagine that?

 

EDIT - Found it, 2016 End of Year Report which makes for interesting reading in retrospect:

 

Edited by John M Upton
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11 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

did I imagine that?

 

You didn't imagine it. I was thinking about that story earlier in the week - but after the allegations, it went quiet.

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There were many fantasies in the DJ world, but the theft of a box of models from within the container port at Southampton was actually true.  The person who did it was even dumb enough to list them on ebay within a few hours, which instantly gave him away because it happened to be the Wilbert exclusive which at the time had not even been delivered to railway that had ordered it!

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28 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

 

Try inserting '...your wallet' into that statement for greater realism....  :D

 

 

 

 

 

Haha.  To be fair to the guy, he never asked for second deposits on the 92.   People were nagging him about paying.  That said, this may be more likely related to his disorganised nature.

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1 minute ago, Not Captain Kernow said:

There were many fantasies in the DJ world, but the theft of a box of models from within the container port at Southampton was actually true.  The person who did it was even dumb enough to list them on ebay within a few hours, which instantly gave him away because it happened to be the Wilbert exclusive which at the time had not even been delivered to railway that had ordered it!


agree that one was true. My dad bought one inadvertently on eBay and got a huge surprise when two local police (in Scotland) turned up asking if he’d bought the model (which wasn’t Wilbert but another J94)! 
 

dad ended up getting paid a couple of quid a month in compensation!

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1 hour ago, Half-full said:

They started being phased out from 2018, with the last airframes to be retired by the end of this year - does that tie in?

 

(Im currently building an F4S Phantom kit, my favourite aircraft)

 

Dear D. Luded. Thank you for your excellent choice on our Phantom* aircraft! We are sure you will not be disappointed!

 

Please deliver (hand over) the moolah in used bills at your earliest convenience to receive your gold commemorative chocolate coin* and full-size replica* model to take part in our latest, exclusive, offer! Book today!

 

* Chocolate coins are liable to melt.

 

* Replica does not indicate scale. 

 

When filling out medical consent forms, please indicate which limb you can afford to lose, 

 

Did I tell you about my camera bag? It's unique! It's got my name & address on the inside!

 

Cheers, 'Mate'!

 

Phaery D'Ust

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I do remember some controversy when the Dapol western was produced looking back in there around pages 56-61 ish Dave does say he has deleted his petulant posts but there is one where he is quoted by another contributor where it seems the unpaid contributors of rmweb get criticism for the western not being 100% correct

 

 

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Recent posts again illustrate the blurring between 'crowdfunding' and 'deposits'.  Not least in Dave Jones's mind, but also in the minds of many prospective purchasers who believed at the outset they were just putting down a deposit to secure one of a limited number of a specific variant of a model that was going to be produced anyway, rather than - in effect -  "investing" in the business with the particular model as your "return".

 

This is something people need to be very wary of in future - especially if the description changes part-way through the process.  If it's crowdfunding, it should clearly say so at the very outset; if it changes part-way through, ask for your money back while you still can.

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2 minutes ago, TomJ said:

At work today as a doctor this was my new visor!177481E6-505E-4AA1-9E49-DB3E84202A14.jpeg.189d928663d816e03b922e6155c67b6d.jpeg

is this his new venture?

 

Setting higher standards in PPE?

 

Put it on your head and it will probably cog down your forehead to the bridge of your nose...

 

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