Budget Modelling in 0-16.5.

[Mountain Goat]

I wanted to challenge myself to build a waggon using just lollypop sticks and tea sturers (Apart from the wheels and couplings... I have yet to fit the couplings. 

So here is the build in picture form. I hope it comes out in the right order.

[Jeff Smith]

Excellent!

[Mountain Goat]

Experiments In Point Control.

 

I am using the term experiment as I am not yet entirely satisfied with this. Don't get me wrong. It all works, but the twine is in high tension in use. It has not failed on me but I do want to change things to ease the strain on tje fishing twine, or to adopt a slightly different method.

 

But here goes... I had previously cast myself some resin wheels with thoughts that they would work on waggons. They do but they are a bit too crude, as resin was not exctly the best material to use. So they ended up being used for point control instead.

 

The micro switches are intended for point frog switching. There are also stiff paperclip wires used for holding point levers in their tensioned position.  

 

The thoughts I have are to provide a more direct route and move the point levers positions. To save long lengths of twine from one board to the next which are easy to connect, but I am wanting to avoid friction, I plan to position  levers on their own boards. I have also had thoughts to use rodding for the points and retain these levers for signals. We shall see. 

 

It is all an experiment. The last but one photo shows a method of amplifying the pull of the lever for the furthest point on the layout, and the last pic shows the wheels used near the levers and one of the white cable tension adjusters made out of plasticard which needed five holes rather than three to prevent the cable from slipping through and losing its tension.

[Mountain Goat]

On the workbench.. Or rather in the process of being worked on I have things like these. This is my much altered and adapted Smallbrook Studeo Cadera diesel, but with a difference. I already had bought a new Toby the Tram engine model to use when I bought the kit, but though the mechanism runs nice, the more I looked at it, the more I thought that the loco chassis really needs external frames.

Looking at my 00 gauge collection the Lima class 09 chassis just looked the part. Nice chunky looking con-rods with the external frames I wanted, and it has the possibility that it may just fit!

Uhmm. May just fit? Haha! I made it fit!

A lot of alterations with the build along with adapting the chassis and I have reached this stage (See photos).

A LOT has been altered to make it fit. The footplate frame has been altered. The steps were narrowed to keep it within my loading gauge. The grill has been internally milled and a cloth grill added so the motor can slightly push against it to get it to fit. Yes the grill is set back slightly from the front of the locomotive but the whole body had to be shifted backwards on the footplate frame to enable it the other end of the motor to fit. 

And you know when people build cars known as sleepers and they cram a big V8 into a smaller car and the V8 tries to stick out the sides and top of the bonnet (Hood)? Well. It was a like this with trying to cram in a lovely large pancake motor in this body. (Naturally the chassis was turned round so the motor sits at the front of the locomotive which gives a lovely flat surface on the chassis for the cab). 

The bonnet top was turned around 180 degrees and milled out to the point that if I milled it any further, the milling bit would have gone straight through. The sides of the bonnet were also milled by hand from the inside. Plasticard was used to extend the height of the bonnet, so the sides and the grill front assembly sit about 1.5 mm to 2mm higher (I can't remember what thickness plasticard was used). 

I then needed to compensate with the cab by adding a whole new floor (To hide the hole which the origional motor and chassis would have made), and the cab instrument panel had a plastcard panel below it to hide the motor under the bonnet... And then the rear of the body where the fuel tank sits was now jutting out the back off the end of the chassis, so it needed to be sanded down to bring it relitlvely flush with the rear bufferbeam.

It was all quite a lot of work extra, but the end result of having this chassis makes the model look right. I have not been bothered to make the model look like the prototype it is based on because all my models are intentionally freelance.

The cab instruments are a mix of a rough idea of the instructions but more of the cab layout based on my experience of some of the main controls used on some of the cabs I travelled in when Inused to work (E.g. class 150, 153, 158 etc), so it is a mix between the two and it looked believable in my eyes. 

It's roof has not yet been fitted as it awaits some train crew, and there are a few small details to be added, along with buffers and dropbars (Couplings). The bufferbeams were deepened as the kit was made to be used with tension lock couplings, so it looks better. The other bufferbeam details were removed as I like my models to have a simple but solid characteristic look to them. 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Mountain Goat

[ColinK]

Nice work fitting the 0-6-0 chassis in.  I’m in the middle of building one of those locos but as per the instructions.  The reason for getting the kit was that a friend obtained a second hand one and asked me to repaint it. It was very difficult and it had already been knocked about a fair bit.  So I bought a kit to see what it should look like.  The only modification I’ve made is to replace the plasticard roof with a brass one.

[Mountain Goat]

27 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Nice work fitting the 0-6-0 chassis in.  I’m in the middle of building one of those locos but as per the instructions.  The reason for getting the kit was that a friend obtained a second hand one and asked me to repaint it. It was very difficult and it had already been knocked about a fair bit.  So I bought a kit to see what it should look like.  The only modification I’ve made is to replace the plasticard roof with a brass one.

 

I will say it was quite a bit of work to fit so not for the faint hearted, but to see those moving con rods makes it worth it.

[Mountain Goat]

Smallbrook Studios open waggon. 

This kit comes in two parts. The bottom part had to be shortened a little to match the body on top. Easy to do.

The kit is designed to fit a Dapol chassis, but at the time I did not have a Dapol chassis, so I used some of my resin cast axleboxes and smaller 10.5mm Romford wheels. If I had packed the axleboxes up I could have used 12.5mm wheels.

 

It actually looks great as it is. I fitted my drop loop style buffer couplings and it is ready to use. The only thing I have not done yet is give it a number as I need to work out a number sequence. I have only numbered a few waggons as yet. 

 

 

[Mountain Goat]

Method of joining track between baseboards which allows for a little bit of movement. (I had brought the track to the edge of the board but I found in the heat of the summer that there was a slight movement between one baseboard and the other as the wood framework became bone dry in the heat.. So plan B was required to remedy this and so I can allow for any possible future movement, as I am making the little railway so that it can be used outdoors if necessary (Weather permitting). The boards themselves are joined using the split hinge method. Lima railjoiners have been used due to their support and robustness).

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Mountain Goat

[Mountain Goat]

I was working on my layout not that long ago while in the barn. It is interesting as I have a few ideas which are coming to me as I work on it. One is to have some sort of jungle theme. Another is to have a closer to home theme but using forced perspective to give the illusion of depth. 

And still another idea is to go with it as I am with following the last idea, but not having a forced perspective but making more use of what I have. (In my mind I know what I mean by that. Difficult to describe in words to others).

 

This is a little view of the other board. It has had a little more work done on it since then.

[Mountain Goat]

Here is a fun little waggon to build. It is a very simple design. I made a little mistake while making it where one wheel was at a slight different angle to the other so only three wheels would sit on the track. To remedy this, I bore out all the axle holes to more then double their size, and drilled with a long minidrill right down the centre of the H chassis so it had a small hole from front to back.

Then I took a single strand of bicycle brake cable to run over the axles and through the hole. This acted as a spring... But it was a little too strong, so I used a strand of bicycle gear cable instead and it is just right. It ended up being a nice sprung chassis!

Mind you, next time I want to drill all the axle holes right. Saves me messing about. I have the equipment now! I didn't before.

[Mountain Goat]

I thought I would add a couple of pictures of a little extra scenic work on the layout. The legs were not put up as it was easier to wotk on the layout while on the floor.

[Jeff Smith]

I see it is a roundy layout, I built a roundy here https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/93887-1920s-leesburg-on30-and-glyn-valley-tramway-o-165/&tab=comments#comment-1732782

but unfortunately it was too cumbersome and I got bored running it.  However you may see some useful elements in it, also I think there is a link in the thread to an extensive On30 site with scenic construction tips.

[doilum]

Lockdown has given me the chance to scratch a few long standing itches. One is to build a 7mm tribute to Dave and Shirley Rowe's Under Milk Wood. Step one: a zero cost loco from a battered Percy and scrap brass offcuts. 

[Mountain Goat]

9 hours ago, doilum said:

Lockdown has given me the chance to scratch a few long standing itches. One is to build a 7mm tribute to Dave and Shirley Rowe's Under Milk Wood. Step one: a zero cost loco from a battered Percy and scrap brass offcuts. 

 

 

I like that. Excellent!

[Stoker]

On 12/06/2020 at 11:00, doilum said:

Lockdown has given me the chance to scratch a few long standing itches. One is to build a 7mm tribute to Dave and Shirley Rowe's Under Milk Wood. Step one: a zero cost loco from a battered Percy and scrap brass offcuts. 

Could you possibly give dimensions for this loco? I have a project in mind and I'd be interested to do something similar. Wheelbase, driver diameter, width, length, height, etc. would all be very useful.

[Mountain Goat]

On 26/06/2020 at 16:20, Stoker said:

Could you possibly give dimensions for this loco? I have a project in mind and I'd be interested to do something similar. Wheelbase, driver diameter, width, length, height, etc. would all be very useful.

 

Length looks like the standard Hornby 0-4-0's minus their couplings and the wheels are also standard Hornby 0-4-0 wheels. Percy had green wheels but otherwize used the same chassis as the Smokey Joe types did. 

The rest of the model the builder will have to answer. 

[doilum]

5 hours ago, Mountain Goat said:

 

Length looks like the standard Hornby 0-4-0's minus their couplings and the wheels are also standard Hornby 0-4-0 wheels. Percy had green wheels but otherwize used the same chassis as the Smokey Joe types did. 

The rest of the model the builder will have to answer. 

For the record: it is a Percy chassis with 16mm wheels and 33mm wheelbase. I retained the original cylinders but put a sleeve of brass tube to bulk them up and retain the motion. The overall dimensions are 38x100mm and 60mm from track to cab roof. There were no careful plans or drawings, it was bodged together to fit around the Hornby mechanism. This is a plastic chassis which is easily butchered, but the scrap box it came from also contains a similar chassis in cast metal.

[Stoker]

Thanks for the replies chaps. I've been working on a design based around the Bachmann Percy/Greg chassis which has a 31mm wheelbase and the wheels appear to be approx 14mm. It sounds like the Hornby 0-4-0 chassis might be a good alternative as 33mm x 16mm is very close. I'm hoping to snag a donor soon so that I can confirm the dimensions and get building. I'm particularly interested to see if I can figure out some ways to upgrade the chassis for slower running, perhaps with a motor swap and some better gears.

Here's a rough draft. I'm quite happy with how it's turned out.

[Mountain Goat]

21 minutes ago, Stoker said:

Thanks for the replies chaps. I've been working on a design based around the Bachmann Percy/Greg chassis which has a 31mm wheelbase and the wheels appear to be approx 14mm. It sounds like the Hornby 0-4-0 chassis might be a good alternative as 33mm x 16mm is very close. I'm hoping to snag a donor soon so that I can confirm the dimensions and get building. I'm particularly interested to see if I can figure out some ways to upgrade the chassis for slower running, perhaps with a motor swap and some better gears.

Here's a rough draft. I'm quite happy with how it's turned out.

 

But a new Hornby 0-4-0 loco like the Smokey Joe or the GWR 101 types. Hornby have worked on them and you get a lovely slow running loco. They look identical but are much improved with weaker pickups (Helps foe slower running) and what I have eard is now a 5 pole motor. They are lovely! Now if you don't mind a little work (Or a lot of work but you have some patience!) Get yourself a Triang 0-4-0 frame and use modern Hornby 0-4-0 parts. You will have to make yourself a new PCB (Or similar) for the pickups and there will very likely be some chassis mazak cutting and milling which took me a couple of days, but the result (All going to plan) will be a heavy solid chassis and nice smooth slow running. I need to work on my pickups as all I had to hand at the time were bicycle gear cable strands which do work ok, but the first running if they have not been used needs coaxing to get the tarnish off the metal "Gear cable" pickups. My loco is now a heavy thing. So heavy that it does not wheelspin even if I wanted it to, but to be fair, Smallbrook Studi had already added lead shot balalst we8ght in the saddle tank, and I added extra weight in the form of liquid lead when I decided the loco needs a pair of coal bunkers, and this was before I decided to do the chassis upgrade.

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Mountain Goat

[Stoker]

Personally I doubt I'll ever bother with the Hornby chassis. Even with the recent improvements it's still somewhat fast, seems completely incapable of crawling, has no crosshead or crosshead guides, and the bent drive-rods are a bit of an eye-sore. Since the Bachmann Percy/Greg chassis has none of these issues I think that's just a better starting point for me. While the issues with the Hornby chassis can be fixed with a bit of bodging, I'm honestly getting to the point where I just want to get on with it, rather than having to faff with a chassis.

One other big downside for me is that living in Canada means postage is often prohibitively high. What seems like a bargain loco becomes decidedly premium at the checkout stage once postage is added. This means I have to be a bit more careful about what I buy.

I really wish there were more options for chassis. This has been a bit of a perennial issue with narrow gauge. I'd build my own if it wasn't such an ordeal to get wheels, axles, gears, and motors!

[Mountain Goat]

21 minutes ago, Stoker said:

Personally I doubt I'll ever bother with the Hornby chassis. Even with the recent improvements it's still somewhat fast, seems completely incapable of crawling, has no crosshead or crosshead guides, and the bent drive-rods are a bit of an eye-sore. Since the Bachmann Percy/Greg chassis has none of these issues I think that's just a better starting point for me. While the issues with the Hornby chassis can be fixed with a bit of bodging, I'm honestly getting to the point where I just want to get on with it, rather than having to faff with a chassis.

One other big downside for me is that living in Canada means postage is often prohibitively high. What seems like a bargain loco becomes decidedly premium at the checkout stage once postage is added. This means I have to be a bit more careful about what I buy.

I really wish there were more options for chassis. This has been a bit of a perennial issue with narrow gauge. I'd build my own if it wasn't such an ordeal to get wheels, axles, gears, and motors!

 

You sure you have had the more recent Hornby Smokey Joe type models. They did do one for a while which had the darkened wheels but it still ran fast. They have upgraded them again since. A few shops had old stock so the old ones were still on the shelves for a while. I bought a few by mistake as they look identical.

 

I too have noticed how things have changed where what was once the norm, where wheel, gear and motor upgrades were common, now that the factory made models have upped their game in both detail and running qualities, the whole market for such fancy upgrades has almost vanished, and when we do see them, their prices have vastly increased as nothing anymore can be sold in bulk. 

It is like the whole concept of what modelling used to be about for the average enthusiast, and what it seems to be about today for the average enthusiast are worlds apart. Today (And I am not knocking this as for some it is ideal) the concept of modelling seems to be getting closer to setting up a trainset on a board ad buying a few ready made buildings. Years ago most things had to be scratchbuilt or kitbuilt or kitbashed etc... 

It is really why I love 7mm narrow gauge because it is like going back in time having virtually no RTR products, and yet it is not too difficult to get decent results. 

While on the one hand I may feel that 0-16.5 could do with a few RTR products, but then I think "No" because the few kit manufacturers would then struggle and it would change the whole experience of the adventure of modelling in 7mm narrow gauge.  

 

I will say those Bachmann chassis are nice. I once had two of their 0-6-0's on their DCC starter sets and while I felt Hornby had the better compromize with their bodies as the Bachmann idea of black plastic non see tnrough windows didn't appeal, Bachmann did seem to have nice chassis. 

 

[Stoker]

I'm quite sure this is very recent. It was a Sams Trains review of the limited edition Smokey Joe, and one thing Sam always does in his videos is demonstrate crawl capability for each loco - needless to say it wasn't just poor it was flatly incapable. I don't know, maybe this was from the previous run you speak of, I'd be thrilled to be wrong and have another viable source of good 0-4-0 chassis, but I think I'd have to see video proof before I bought one and would need to know specifically which model number to order.

But I have to say that I agree with you about the shift in attitudes in the hobby. It's much more ready-to-run focused now, and that has been at the noticeable detriment of the smaller producers who make detail parts. This has forced a dramatic change in the last few years in particular for the number of people doing "diesel detailing" of North American prototypes, where once it was standard to add horns, bells, thinwall cab kits, air filters, vents, fans, etc. and now it's just expected that a model loco have all this detail pre-applied and proto-specific out of the box.

A lot of manufacturers are now dead and gone or on the brink. Wrightlines and all their fantastic kits, Backwoods, most motor bogie manufacturers, mashima, Romford seem touch-and-go, Ultrascale seem to act like it's just too much hassle to be worthwhile...  for a while there NWSL were just totally kaput and thankfully seem to have come back, but no telling for how long. Branchlines also seem to have slipped into obscurity... they used to be the one-stop-shop if you needed to build a chassis, just give them a call and tell them what you need and they usually had everything.

It's frustrating for me as I have many projects I'd like to 3D print and potentially offer as kits or RTR models, but I just can't get the running gear side of it. I can have photo etches made up no problem, but just not wheels, gears, and motors.

[Phil Traxson]

The newer "Smokey Joe" type chassis do run. and crawl much better but the performance of any of them is greatly influenced by the controller used to supply the power to them. I'm very wary of any reviews as this is often an unknown quantity and is barely ever mentioned, likewise  the qualifications of the "Expert" testing them.

  Straight out of the box reviews are not always good either, like anything mechanical they need a period to "bed in", every thing from motor brushes and bearing, gears etc. to pick ups and wheel bearings, before you get reliable results.  

  I have no problems with the old or new chassis so long as I have clean track, wheel treads and pick ups, this latter is also often neglected too.

My controllers were built by a professional electrician in our modelling group, who unfortunately fell victim to cancer and is no longer with us, so can't give chapter and verse on the construction of these. Suffice it to say that if I use my old H & M controllers I have problems, great for the old X04 open frame motors, not so with modern efficient low current motors, with the more modern controller the problem doesn't happen.  Very much correct horses for courses. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Phil Traxson

[Jeff Smith]

I have a 35 year old Gaugemaster single track DC controller with built in transformer adjusted (by Gaugemaster) for 110v.  It seems fine with Mashima motors, coreless  Portescap and RTR Bachmann On30.  I don't think it is a feedback controller.

[Stoker]

Without doubt, the single biggest variable I've encountered in "slow running" is that different people have different tastes, and different ideas about what "slow, smooth running" actually is. Some people are just more impatient operators, not concerned with realistic movement, so to them a model that others consider intolerably fast might be perceived as nice and smooth so long as the motor performs well within it's capable range. It's this very subjectivity that makes me highly skeptical of other people's personal impressions of any locomotive. And so without meaning anyone any offense l remain unconvinced unless I see a video for proof. (But I'm keeping my fingers crossed for another viable 0-4-0 chassis, you can never have too many)

In my 25+ years in the hobby, I've also seen just about every single gimmick that claims to make fast locos with cheap motors able to crawl, and in my experience none have ever lived up to their claims. My dad had a really fancy (and expensive) controller at one point, with "force feedback" if anyone remembers that, which was hand built by a guru... however my 30 quid gaugemaster could run anything equally as well, because I suspect the critical components in the controller were ultimately of equal quality. Both did absolutely nothing for the cheap mainline 0-6-0 that sounded like a coffee grinder, both were able to get my Bachmann WD Austerity to crawl so slow we had to put a ruler beside the engine to verify it was actually moving. The difference is in the quality of the components that the respective manufacturers put on the locos, the controller had zero to do with it.

I also disagree that "bedding in" makes so dramatic a difference as to completely invalidate out-of-the-box reviews. In all my years in the hobby I've yet to see a loco magically "gain" the ability to crawl entirely from bedding in. The simple fact is they can either do it out the box or they can't, period. I've also run enough locos in my time to be able to know whether they're going to be a good runner the second a current passes through the motor. Good runners have a certain gentle sound and smoothness, with low starting voltages and little stutter - bedding in usually just takes them from near-perfect to perfect. Then the most flawless runners I've ever seen were hand built 009 locos with Swiss made Maxon coreless motors, full compensation, circa 40:1 gearing, keep-alive capacitors, and DCC. The only thing more impressive than the locos was the workshop and know-how of the guy who built them. The point I'm getting at here is that there's no substitute for quality chassis, and no good band-aid for bad ones. It's really just a matter of physics.

Ultimately my gut instinct with the Hornby 0-4-0 is that it's probably a worm and spur upgrade away from being a very good runner, and that the reason why people can't get it to crawl in the videos I've seen is because it simply can't run the motor slow enough to overcome the nearly 1:1 gearing. Many people have found that 5 pole motors help (and I've seen some speculation that this is what Hornby upgraded the 0-4-0 with although I highly doubt it) and while it's true that 5-polers have lower starting voltages and a lower base RPM, that's still no substitute for the mechanical advantage of gears. Ultrascale make 40:1 worm and gear sets that'd turn these locos into Swiss watches, particularly with the addition of DCC and keep-alive, and perhaps I'll do that myself someday as a proof of concept, as I feel it'd be a fun project.