Jump to content
 

Proposed new Welsh stations


Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks Metr0Land. Sorry I forgot Llandysul, population 1439 (that is the one in Ceredigion, not the one in Powys).

Jonathan

 

No problem.  I live in Carmarthenshire just 4 miles from Llandysul which I always think of in Carms but actually it's in Ceredigion (Cardiganshire in old money).  Meanwhile Newcastle Emlyn is about 7 miles distant and I always think of it in Ceredigion but it's actually in Carms. Still can't get my brain round these two after 6 years down here.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Can anyone give me an estimate of likely ridership of Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Afon Wen-Bangor lines?

 

Jonathan

 

The Aber-Carmarthen study was here but doesn't seem to want to open for me:

 

https://gov.wales/aberystwyth-carmarthen-rail-reinstatement-feasibility-study

 

Edit:  I realised I have all the docs on my pc.  Exec summary attached here.  Too big to upload everything.  I don't think the Exec Summary has ridership.

 

 

aberystwyth-to-carmarthen-rail-reinstatement-feasibility-study-executive-summary.pdf

Edited by Metr0Land
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
15 hours ago, mikejames said:

it seems to me a north wales to south wales inside wales is a political rather than a transport objective.

If wales wants such a facility then fine - but wales should pay.

I don't know how many people wish to travel regularly from south west wales (Pembroke) to north west wales (Bangor) but not many I suspect. For more easterly travel -passing through England shouldn't be a geographical rather than a political problem.

I suspect this is a money isn't important discussion

mike james

 

 

Having lived here for 6 years now I have to agree with you.  It seems to me the people in Cardiff are incensed by the need for North-South rail travel to have to go via England, to the exclusion of any sensible debate about costs/benefits.  The geography is never going to change but that doesn't cut it with The Tafia.  Then again, the money isn't coming from their own pockets......

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Would a service from Cardiff to Holyhead actually be any quicker via Swansea (reverse), single line (presumably) from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth (reverse), single line to Afon Wen, single line (presumably) to Bangor (reverse again) than via the current route, which is all double track (except for Wrexham/Chester) and maintained to main line standards ?

 

  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I seriously doubt it.  I've just looked at the full document for Carmarthen-Aberystwyth.  They're suggesting 79-93 mins for the journey (assuming 60 secs dwell time at intermedite stations - slowest is Class 153 slightly differing times for other units).  This is for a road journey of 48 miles between the 2.  

 

That case never looked at 'express' routeings but with plenty of 40mph restrictions due to geography it has to stand on its own as a substantially local line, and it doesn't.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Tricky-CRS said:

 

Its a big time issue travelling from Mid Wales or North Wales to South Wales via England, could you imagine the Scots putting up with all rail journeys between Glasgow and Edinburgh going via Newcastle? Or all Bristol to London Via Portsmouth or Manchester? Ultimately you do not know what the demand is until you build it and by building it you create the demand. 

 

Actually you can get a pretty good idea of demand from population density, and as Northmoor and corneliuslundie have shown, the population of even the 'large' towns in Mid and North Wales is tiny in comparison to Bristol and Edinburgh, never mind Glasgow, London, etc.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

In order to compete on journey times with going via Chester you'd need to forget the old alignments and build a lot of tunnels (Sanyo & Kyushu Shinkansen style). Though at least one national park. That'll be a great investment.

 

Look at the roads that run North/ South in Wales. If there was much demand for that journey they'd be a lot better and faster than they are.

Edited by Zomboid
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 06/06/2020 at 15:59, The Johnster said:

Why not build it on stilts out on the Afon Menai foreshore?  No land purchase needed, and a bit of tourist scenic potential; it could terminate just east of the castle and it's not a long walk into 'town' from there.

Because of the marine biodiversity in the Menai Straights?

Link to post
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, mikejames said:

 

 For more easterly travel -passing through England shouldn't be a geographical rather than a political problem

It's the political decision that's caused the problem in the first place

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

As others have said, there is a finite amout of £o££€¥ available to the WAG for rail schemes.  It needs to spent where it will have the most benefit to the communities who are ultimately funding it through  their taxes.
Spending millions to enable a rail journey between north and south wales on an alignment wholely within Wales makes no sense as an aim.  It would also be possible to unicycle between north and south Wales, buth nobody is going to do that either!  Takes far too long.  Given the geography of Wales, staying on the level and going via England is always goig to be quicker.
Some schemes, such as a new link between Bangor and Caernarfon are a no-brainer.  Carmarthern to Aberystwyth by the old alignment was always a basket case, and still is!  Lots of other schemes on which the money would be better spent.   As for Amlwch, there is a lot of housing in Llangefny and very little work.  Amlwch is just too small to warrent a rail service, but to me a new TfL service to  Llangefny for commuters connecting to a heritage railway to Amlwch along the rest of the branch would give the greatest benefit to the locals for the money spent.
 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

In order to compete on journey times with going via Chester you'd need to forget the old alignments and build a lot of tunnels (Sanyo & Kyushu Shinkansen style). Though at least one national park. That'll be a great investment.

 

Look at the roads that run North/ South in Wales. If there was much demand for that journey they'd be a lot better and faster than they are.

 

There is campaigns to upgrade the north - south road route down through Newtown (now bypassed) this road has major problems at times and has had quite a bit spent on it around Chirk and Newtown. I believe more needs to be done further south and that jobs are being lost in the area due to poor transport links. Good road and rail connections should be available to all not just the mass population centres, we all need to travel outwards at some point.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Fantasising - while Wales is growing bung in Cheshire as well into Wales.

Expresses from Cardiff to Birkenhead again.

Covid coverage (TV) by the Senedd leaders is much better than BJ and friends.

Regards

Basil

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The Wrexham-Bidston Rail User Group have been pushing the case for Deeside Parkway for some time now, with reasoned arguments and a solid case for funding. It's great to see their hard work starting to pay off.

 

With this and the D-Train coming soon, its exciting to see the potential for Wrexham-Bidston and hopefully on to Liverpool.

 

  • Agree 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The only reason I can see for linking North and South Wales by rail without the diversion through Shropshire is in event of independence to allow non passport holders to travel and quite frankly I'd prefer they just added Shropshire and Herefordshire to the independence bid so I could leave the country without moving house. 

 

More realistically making timetable adjustments could see an express coach making decent connections between LLandrindod Wells and Newtown.  Not sure what to do further north though as both the main road and railway duck into Shropshire for a bit south of Wrexham.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

If Owain Glyndwr had had his way a good bit of Shropshire and Cheshire, as well as Herefordshire, and half of Gloucestershire would have been in Wales.  He entered into a tripartite agreement with his fellow rebels, Henry (Hotspur) Percy and Bishop of Worcester, Scrope, to divide England between them.  Wales was to incorporate everything west of the Severn as far as Bridgnorth, and from there the border would have run to the River Dee at Chester.  The Trent was to form the border between Percy's new Northumbria, and Scrope's portion, which would have been the rest.  This nearly happened; had Glyndwr been able to reach Shrewsbury in time to participate in the battle won by Prince Henry (a Welshman by birth, born in Monmouth) on behalf of his father the King, it is possible that Henry IV would have been deposed.  Henry IV's claim to the throne over Edward VI was a bit wobbly to say the least, and they never found Edward's body.  He was locked in Pontefract Castle 'for his own safety',and never heard of again...

 

An 'Express' coach between Llandrindod and Newtown already runs, the T4, but one cannot demand much in the way of speed from it on the A483 or, indeed, between Brecon and Builth.

Edited by The Johnster
  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Re the T4, one problem is that it is the only service in the area and therefore detours to serve several villages which rarely produce any passengers but add to the time taken: Llandewi, Boughrood and Felinfach being the three between Newtown and Brecon. I reckon this adds 10 minutes to that part of the journey which is just under 2 hours. But this need not apply to an express coach service between Swansea and Bangor. I agree though that the road between Newtown and Llandrindod is very slow, especially the first few miles up to and beyond Dolfor, but that is partly because of the need to gain a considerable amount of height.

An irrelevant fact: i understand that that road was paid for by Newtown's entrepreneur Pryce Pryce Jones, who also invented mail order and persuaded the Post Office to make a standard scale of charges regardless of distance for parcels.

It is true though that any north-south service within Wales whether by rail or by road is always going to be hampered by the geography. Just too many hills and not many people.

Now if we could persuade the sheep to use the train . . .

Jonathan

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

This is the bane of Welsh bus services, the constant purloining of services between population centres to provide service to housing estates, villages off the main road, and school services.  You can sort of understand the Cardiff-Porthcawl service diverting into Bridgend bus station even if it's 10 minute wait there is irritating, but for it to then go round all the back streets in Porthcawl is bloody annoying.  Many of the Cardiff-Barry buses divert through a housing estate in Penarth and then again through Cadoxton. and the X4, Cardiff-Merthyr-Abergavenny-Hereford goes around the houses and acts as a school bus in Ebbw Vale, as well as taking the B road between Tredegar and Ebbw Vale, minutes apart on the Heads of the Valleys.  Not sure it this happens in England but my limited experience suggests it does.  Surely, if there is enough traffic in a village or on an estate to justify diverting an 'X' service bus or coach, there's enough to justify a feeder service to and from that village or estate without flagging down the main service.

 

While we're moaning about Welsh buses, not so much a service as a vague intention to run one at some indeterminate time in the future, why can't I go from Cardiff to Swansea on my bus pass unless I take all day via Aberdare?  I'd be happy with a bus from Bridgend bus station but there isn't one.

 

Back in the day, Neath & Cardiff coaches, the Brown Bombers, ran a stopping service Cardiff-Swansea along the old A48, which took an hour and a half.  If you saw a Brown Bomber in your rear view mirror, it was getting bigger rapidly and you got out of the way if you knew what was good for you.  Red leather seats, and they could do about 85mph.  At this time, the last train from Bridgend to Abergwynfi arrived at 23.55, connecting with the last daytime down Padd-Swansea.  Just try getting anywhere in that part of the world nowadays by public transport after about 8 o'clock, even on a weekday...

  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

If Owain Glyndwr had had his way a good bit of Shropshire and Cheshire, as well as Herefordshire, and half of Gloucestershire would have been in Wales.  He entered into a tripartite agreement with his fellow rebels, Henry (Hotspur) Percy and Bishop of Worcester, Scrope, to divide England between them.  Wales was to incorporate everything west of the Severn as far as Bridgnorth, and from there the border would have run to the River Dee at Chester.  The Trent was to form the border between Percy's new Northumbria, and Scrope's portion, which would have been the rest.  This nearly happened; had Glyndwr been able to reach Shrewsbury in time to participate in the battle won by Prince Henry (a Welshman by birth, born in Monmouth) on behalf of his father the King, it is possible that Henry IV would have been deposed.  Henry IV's claim to the throne over Edward VI was a bit wobbly to say the least, and they never found Edward's body.  He was locked in Pontefract Castle 'for his own safety',and never heard of again...

 

An 'Express' coach between Llandrindod and Newtown already runs, the T4, but one cannot demand much in the way of speed from it on the A483 or, indeed, between Brecon and Builth.

Richard 2, not Edward 6. His body, or at least a body, was displayed in St Pauls before burial at Kings Langley.

 

In the present day, there would be a lot of support for a border along the Trent/ Mersey Trent Canal. Although North of the Tyne there is still a widespread assumption that the current Percy, or more likely his Duchess, actually runs the county anyway!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 08/06/2020 at 13:20, caradoc said:

Would a service from Cardiff to Holyhead actually be any quicker via Swansea (reverse), single line (presumably) from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth (reverse), single line to Afon Wen, single line (presumably) to Bangor (reverse again) than via the current route, which is all double track (except for Wrexham/Chester) and maintained to main line standards ?

 

 I seriously doubt it would, its currently roughly 2 hours to Carmarthen, add another 2-2 1/2 to get to Aber. From Aber to Dovey junction, with time for a change you're looking at another hour and a further 2 hours to get to Porthmadog and another 2 hours to get to Holyhead.

So what's that 9-10 hours, whereas currently Cardiff to Holyhead is under 7 hours. 

 

If i had the money to burn I'd look at re-doubling and upping the line speed wherever possible on the heart of Wales line to make it a viable route from west wales to the Midlands and see if traffic increases.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Ah yes, Neath & Cardiff Luxury Coaches., I remember them from my university days. A sad loss.

The answer regarding most of the villages the long distance buses stop at in mid Wales is that there simply is not the traffic to make a local service viable. In normal circumstances I go from Newtown to Brecon every two months on a Saturday (Welsh Railways Research Circle Publications Working Group). We very rarely pick up or drop anyone in any of the villages. It may be slightly different on the bus that calls at the school in Builth at the end of he school day, though I still don't remember any of the pupils being dropped in the village on the one occasion I had cause to use that service.

I would simply put a bus stop on the main road at the end of the village access road. In two of the three cases that would be a maximum of a five minute walk from the existing stops.

Or could we use technology and when you arrive at a bus stop in one of the villages you press a button which alerts the driver that someone wants to be picked up? Eventually I hope the local youfs would tire of playing with it.

Jonathan

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
33 minutes ago, gazer117 said:

 I seriously doubt it would, its currently roughly 2 hours to Carmarthen, add another 2-2 1/2 to get to Aber. From Aber to Dovey junction, with time for a change you're looking at another hour and a further 2 hours to get to Porthmadog and another 2 hours to get to Holyhead.

So what's that 9-10 hours, whereas currently Cardiff to Holyhead is under 7 hours. 

 

If i had the money to burn I'd look at re-doubling and upping the line speed wherever possible on the heart of Wales line to make it a viable route from west wales to the Midlands and see if traffic increases.

 

When I used to go back and forth between Pembrokeshire and Liverpool as a student, I almost always travelled via Cardiff.  Had I used the HoW, I would have connected into the same service at Shrewsbury; going the long way round cost me no time or extra fare and was on a more comfortable 158 unit.  The line speed and many stops on the HoW was only part of the issue.

A bigger time penalty was the connection at Llanelli because going North, the train from Milford always arrived just after the Shrewsbury train had left (so you needed to have left at least an hour earlier and spent the time waiting at Llanelli) and in the Southbound direction, the HoW train arrived just after the Milford train had left, so you had an hour+ wait for the next one.  I never understood why they were timetabled like this; it wasn't even as if they were timetabled to connect with London services at Swansea and the number of people commuting from stations on the HoW to travel towards Cardiff must have been tiny.

Considering the spectacular growth over the Crewe-Cardiff route over recent decades, you would think exploiting the available capacity on the HoW to encourage a few people a day to use the direct route, would have been a cheaper way of providing extra capacity between West Wales and the West Midlands or the North West, than lengthening trains between Cardiff-Crewe/Manchester/Liverpool.  There's a lot of Universities in those conurbations....

Out of interest, I remember reading that when Llandeilo-Carmarthen closed (just before Beeching), the line was still operated by steam, every station except one was staffed and all had manned level crossings. The annual saving from closure was just £11,000 per annum. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

When I used to go back and forth between Pembrokeshire and Liverpool as a student, I almost always travelled via Cardiff.  Had I used the HoW, I would have connected into the same service at Shrewsbury; going the long way round cost me no time or extra fare and was on a more comfortable 158 unit.  The line speed and many stops on the HoW was only part of the issue.

A bigger time penalty was the connection at Llanelli because going North, the train from Milford always arrived just after the Shrewsbury train had left (so you needed to have left at least an hour earlier and spent the time waiting at Llanelli) and in the Southbound direction, the HoW train arrived just after the Milford train had left, so you had an hour+ wait for the next one.  I never understood why they were timetabled like this; it wasn't even as if they were timetabled to connect with London services at Swansea and the number of people commuting from stations on the HoW to travel towards Cardiff must have been tiny.

Considering the spectacular growth over the Crewe-Cardiff route over recent decades, you would think exploiting the available capacity on the HoW to encourage a few people a day to use the direct route, would have been a cheaper way of providing extra capacity between West Wales and the West Midlands or the North West, than lengthening trains between Cardiff-Crewe/Manchester/Liverpool.  There's a lot of Universities in those conurbations....

Out of interest, I remember reading that when Llandeilo-Carmarthen closed (just before Beeching), the line was still operated by steam, every station except one was staffed and all had manned level crossings. The annual saving from closure was just £11,000 per annum. 

 

I was going to suggest that if you upgrade the HoW line, the next obvious suggestion would be to re-instate the line from Carmarthen to Llandeillo.

Yes you'd need a new alignment in places and several new bridges but it wouldn't be un-surmountable and would save atleast an hour to get to Llandeillo from Carmarthen ?  If you did that and upgraded the HoW line you could route quite a lot of traffic from/to Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire that way instead of it going through Cardiff and the Marches to reach Shrewsbury. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
20 minutes ago, gazer117 said:

 

I was going to suggest that if you upgrade the HoW line, the next obvious suggestion would be to re-instate the line from Carmarthen to Llandeillo.

Yes you'd need a new alignment in places and several new bridges but it wouldn't be un-surmountable and would save atleast an hour to get to Llandeillo from Carmarthen ?  If you did that and upgraded the HoW line you could route quite a lot of traffic from/to Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire that way instead of it going through Cardiff and the Marches to reach Shrewsbury. 

Realistically a 40 minute saving plus the Llanelli connection time, but that adds up to a lot.  One of those lines that should have been modernised and might have survived a lot longer, but which would be completely uneconomic to reopen.

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Realistically a 40 minute saving plus the Llanelli connection time, but that adds up to a lot.  One of those lines that should have been modernised and might have survived a lot longer, but which would be completely uneconomic to reopen.

 

I agree, i don't quite get why the Welsh Government are so hell bent on the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line. The line from Carmarthen-Llandeillo seems to have been forgotten and would be a much less costly project. I'd argue that if it was an isolated line there would be no case for reopening but as you said it would shorter the journey from Carmarthen to Shrewsbury to 2 1/2 hours which IMO is pretty good compared to the 4 1/2 hours at the moment. How many people would use it is a different question altogether. 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The answer regarding most of the villages the long distance buses stop at in mid Wales is that there simply is not the traffic to make a local service viable.

 

That applies elsewhere too ! Pre-lockdown in March I decided that rather than splash out on a taxi, I would get the bus from Paisley to Glasgow Airport. By the time the bus had gone round multiple suburban streets, sometimes seemingly doubling back on itself, before actually getting to the Airport, I could have walked there !

 

Ideas such as the new or re-instated lines being discussed here sound wonderful and would no doubt be useful, but sadly not for a sufficient number of people to justify the huge cost. If a bus cannot begin to pay for itself without serving every village and hamlet en route, a railway has no chance !

 

  • Agree 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...