Proposed new Welsh stations

[The Johnster]

How about diverting the Central Wales line services 'direct' to Swansea HS avoiding Llanelli by relaying the LNW from Ponrardulais to Gowerton and effect a junction with the SWML there.  This would save about 30 minutes on the Shrewsbury-Swanse running time, and increase traffic on the southern end of the Central Wales with commuters and shoppers to Swansea.  Traffic can be quite bad in the area and the big car parks are on the wrong side of Swansea for them.

 

This would I suspect be easier, cheaper, and offer a far better return on the investment than attempting to re-open Carmarthen-Aberystwyth.

[Northmoor]

36 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

How about diverting the Central Wales line services 'direct' to Swansea HS avoiding Llanelli by relaying the LNW from Ponrardulais to Gowerton and effect a junction with the SWML there.  This would save about 30 minutes on the Shrewsbury-Swanse running time, and increase traffic on the southern end of the Central Wales with commuters and shoppers to Swansea.  Traffic can be quite bad in the area and the big car parks are on the wrong side of Swansea for them.

I have often thought this would have been sensible (I believe there was actually a link between the GW and LNW lines at Gowerton, barely ever used), while Gorseinon would have provided considerably more commuter traffic than Bynea.....

Unfortunately the route got built over near Gorseinon quite recently.

[John-Miles]

IIRC the link at Gowerton was in connection of the collapse of Cockett Tunnel and the link allowed the GWR trains to and from the west to access the LNWR line towards Victoria rather than allowing trains from the Central Wales to access High Street.

[Zomboid]

21 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Unfortunately the route got built over near Gorseinon quite recently.

Would any of the same benefits be achieved by a chord from the Swansea avoiding line to the SWML near Llansamlet? Assuming that's buildable of course.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Would any of the same benefits be achieved by a chord from the Swansea avoiding line to the SWML near Llansamlet? Assuming that's buildable of course.

Possible, there's not much "in the way" but you'd have to gain quite a lot of height to join the SWML which is dropping towards Swansea at that point.  Has the Swansea District Line been singled yet?  I know it was planned after the re-doubling across the new Lougher viaduct was completed.

[gazer117]

37 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Possible, there's not much "in the way" but you'd have to gain quite a lot of height to join the SWML which is dropping towards Swansea at that point.  Has the Swansea District Line been singled yet?  I know it was planned after the re-doubling across the new Lougher viaduct was completed.

 I think that there are problems with clearance on the district Line, that have restricted it's usage but is still double line. I do believe that the Welsh Government want to create a "Swansea Parkway" station on the district line. I'm not sure as to how much life the bridge over the River Neath has left in it as it's got a severe speed restriction over it. 

[Ben B]

I think the best bet on the northern leg would be to start by just reconnecting Caernarfon to the national network at Bangor, difficult as it might be; probably a better bet than linking the whole way to Afonwen, as I doubt the Cambrian would support an extended service without infrastructure upgrades.  Of course, it could all be academic; if Fairbourne does go under, with sea-level rises (the village is slated to be abandoned at some point) maybe the whole Cambrian Coast line could be lost.  The Bangor-Afonwen could be the only way of keeping the north end of the Coast route rail-served, unless it's run as an isolated section (unlikely).  In the case of the Bangor-Caernarfon Only route though, the difficulty, on a budget, would be Caernarfon station... with Morrisons being sat on the old station site, it would mean a 'classic' modern, out of town single-track-and-bus-shelter about a mile away; I wouldn't want them to go down the Borders Route option of having the terminus away from the town and having to run a bus link for the final bit, which would defeat the object of the exercise.  The 'pipe dream' ideal would be a cross-platform interchange somehow with the Welsh Highland of course, which would involve a fair bit of demolition and closing the tunnel to road traffic, though might be doable with the bypass going in.

 

As for the Cambrian itself, I've got myself a bit depressed going back through some of my photographs from 2004/05 over the last few days.  Regular steam excursions on the weekdays, loco-hauled additional services to Aberystwyth around Uni starting time, and occasional loco-hauled excursions alongside the regular 158's; even then, longer 158 formations up the coast line on the Bank Hols.  Last time I was in the area was about three weeks of the summer hols last year, and two weeks in October and November, and the permanent way was looking scruffy, and the regular services were overcrowded 2-car units (and not terribly punctual at that). 

 

It feels like a line that's crying out for a bit of investment, like it's nearby neighbour, the Conwy Valley.  The latter seems to spend more time closed each year for flood repairs than it does open, but even when it is running, the service is pretty spartan.  Whatever happened to the plan to return slate-waste trains?  An enthusiast I was speaking to up there said NR weren't prepared to fund signalling changes and upgrading points, though I don't know if that's true or not.  I've always thought the line is only grudgingly maintained as a strategic link to the old power station site in case Trawsfynned ever reopens, but it seems another line which isn't well funded; a sprinter (often single-carriage) a few times a day and no Sunday services much of the year.

 

The railways of Snowdonia have a lot of potential, and if people cannot easily travel overseas in the immediate aftermath of this crisis, then maybe it could be developed as a way of bringing domestic day-trippers back to the area?  (I gather investment-wise Barmouth Viaduct is possibly getting a refresh this year, which is glad to know given how ropey it was looking last year).  I know capacity is a problem, partly by the lack of infrastructure but mainly because the line has the bare-minimum ERTMS-fitted 158 allocation.  But would there be a possibility of hiring a rake of MK2's and using a couple of the yellow 97's for a regular loco-hauled Wolverhampton- Pwllheli timed to get people to the coast for a daytrip to the seaside (stopping Machynllyth, Towyn, Barmouth, Harlech, Porthmadog, Criccieth, Pwllheli).  It's always struck me as ridiculous that during the No.6 Festival at Portmerion, Virgin would run extra trains for festival goers... to Bangor, where a fleet of coaches would drive down from the north coast and drop people off at Portmerion, passing three Cambrian Coast line stations en-route.  I know Virgin couldn't run Voyagers through on the Cambrian Coast, but it seemed daft that a charter train couldn't run with the 97's along the Cambrian Coast to Porthmadog instead for the festival goers.

 

When I was a student still living in the West Mids in the early 2000's, you could -just about- do a daytrip to the seaside for a day from Wolverhampton to Barmouth, bit of a long journey, but do-able nevertheless.  I know the timetable is restricted at the moment because of Covid 19, but before the crisis it still didn't look like too appealing a timetable.  And I really don't get why the services to the Cambrian Coast have to start so far down the line in the West Midlands; I can understand perhaps the logic of starting from New Street to capture the Brum passengers, but going all the way out to International just puts the regular timetabled services through two of the most crowded, slow-moving corridors in the West Mids.  Starting and terminating at Wolverhampton does mean a train change for passengers from Birmingham, but there's plenty of commuter services on the Stour Valley line to Wolverhampton for them to travel on, and it would mean fewer knock-on delays.

 

 

[Northmoor]

21 minutes ago, Ben B said:

As for the Cambrian itself, I've got myself a bit depressed going back through some of my photographs from 2004/05 over the last few days.  Regular steam excursions on the weekdays, loco-hauled additional services to Aberystwyth around Uni starting time, and occasional loco-hauled excursions alongside the regular 158's; even then, longer 158 formations up the coast line on the Bank Hols.  Last time I was in the area was about three weeks of the summer hols last year, and two weeks in October and November, and the permanent way was looking scruffy, and the regular services were overcrowded 2-car units (and not terribly punctual at that). 

 

It feels like a line that's crying out for a bit of investment, like it's nearby neighbour, the Conwy Valley.  The latter seems to spend more time closed each year for flood repairs than it does open, but even when it is running, the service is pretty spartan.  Whatever happened to the plan to return slate-waste trains?  An enthusiast I was speaking to up there said NR weren't prepared to fund signalling changes and upgrading points, though I don't know if that's true or not.  I've always thought the line is only grudgingly maintained as a strategic link to the old power station site in case Trawsfynned ever reopens, but it seems another line which isn't well funded; a sprinter (often single-carriage) a few times a day and no Sunday services much of the year.

 

I think the whole Welsh network suffers from two things; Arriva losing the franchise (so they had an excuse to do as little as possible before handing their train fleet over to the new franchisee) and before that, a franchise being awarded on a presumption of no growth.  This has led to the embarrassing sight of the Cardiff Valleys rush hour being largely served by the shortest, oldest and least appealing rolling stock in the UK, instead of electrified and some of the HUGE quantity of mid-life EMUs now available, cascaded as a stop-gap until new stock could be built, spreading the cost of infrastructure and stock over a decade or so. 

 

But the WAG has never been enthusiastic about railways and prefers grand schemes, hence my criticism of the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth proposal.  There have been any number of smaller, cheaper but much less headline-grabbing schemes which would provide a massively greater rate-of-return, but which usually lose out on funding to some local road improvement.

 

As for improving the Conwy Valley line for freight, I think I remember similar, that NR inflated the costs up to farcical levels because they had seemingly completely lost the in-house skills to scope and deliver infrastructure improvements.  Assuming the track could have coped with the axle loadings, it should have been easy to "lock in" a freight train in the sidings alongside the old station, and operate the train after the end of the daily passenger service.  Has the slate waste actually been removed by other means or did that scheme fall by the wayside?

[corneliuslundie]

Re Barmouth Viaduct, the sum I saw was £25 million for repairs. I don't know if it another attack of the Toredo Worm, or just old age.

I m not sure about the 97s. One failed at Llandrinod last year on a special. Fortunately they were top and tailed but it cause a lot of delay. And there are only three.

I suspect that the railway between the viaduct and Friog will be ok, it is the spit which will probably go, bad news for the Fairourn Miniature Railway though.

Jonathan

[mikejames]

re Conwy valley.

Does any one know what's going on

Its listed as closed until September.

I know there was a flood back in feb, and its not a 'high priority' issue

but this seems a long time to fix.

I just don't know where to look to see if its 'a big job' or 'a not urgent problem'.

any pointers to NRs thinking would be welcome.

( I have a 'second home' about twenty yards from the line!!)

mike james

[Ben B]

Quote

As for improving the Conwy Valley line for freight, I think I remember similar, that NR inflated the costs up to farcical levels because they had seemingly completely lost the in-house skills to scope and deliver infrastructure improvements.  Assuming the track could have coped with the axle loadings, it should have been easy to "lock in" a freight train in the sidings alongside the old station, and operate the train after the end of the daily passenger service.  Has the slate waste actually been removed by other means or did that scheme fall by the wayside?

 

I remember a trial-run with top and tailed 66's from Blaenau Ffestiniog, maybe two trial runs, then NR basically said there needed to be either a new passing loop somewhere, or the sidings at the terminus needed upgrading, or signalling the whole lot would be roughly as costly and complex as re-signalling Manchester Piccadilly, and it couldn't be done.  As for coping with the axle loadings, I gather this week from the excellent North Wales Coast Railway Noticeboard that ballast trains with 56's and/or 70's have worked along the line so it can clearly support heavy locomotives and bogie aggregate wagons.  I suspect that the issue is that if the line is open to freight, it becomes a bit more necessary to rapidly repair and reopen during the regular 'closed due to flooding/rockslides' which happens annually and seems to shut the line for months at a time.

 

Quote

re Conwy valley.

Does any one know what's going on

Its listed as closed until September.

I know there was a flood back in feb, and its not a 'high priority' issue

but this seems a long time to fix.

I just don't know where to look to see if its 'a big job' or 'a not urgent problem'.

any pointers to NRs thinking would be welcome.

( I have a 'second home' about twenty yards from the line!!)

 

As far as I know NR have been struggling with repairing the flood damage from Jan or Feb, and also need to reinstate the platform at Dolgarrog.  It was a bizarre sight last year, streetlamps, telescreens, and all the other trappings of a modern halt, but all suspended high in the air above the ballast with no platform.  Thing is, even without the Covid issue, I think NR consider it 'only' a branch line, and tend to take their time with the repairs.  I imagine some bean-counter is hoping that all these frequent closures will put people off to the point where the passenger service can be further rationalised; again, according to something on the North Wales Coast Noticeboard last year, there was a plan to replace even the summer service with a 153 instead of a 150, as the train operator were so desperately short of rolling stock for South Wales and needed the longer sprinters elsewhere.  As far as I know Conwy Valley is meant to be getting a converted tube set (D train) at some point.

I miss the days when it had the dedicated green class 101 in the 90's...

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Ben B said:

Of course, it could all be academic; if Fairbourne does go under, with sea-level rises (the village is slated to be abandoned at some point) maybe the whole Cambrian Coast line could be lost.

AFAIK the abandonment of Borth And Fairbourne is up to but not including the railway line, which is to become the sea wall at both locations.  The Borth-Ynyslas section is quite low lying and will have toe be built up for this to work, but at Fairbourne the railway doesn't really get down to ground level after coming off the gradient from Ffriog and is on an embankment to Barmout Jc and the bridge.  I think the Harlech-Penrhyndeudraeth section is probably going to be a sea wall as well.

[caradoc]

15 hours ago, Ben B said:

And I really don't get why the services to the Cambrian Coast have to start so far down the line in the West Midlands; I can understand perhaps the logic of starting from New Street to capture the Brum passengers, but going all the way out to International just puts the regular timetabled services through two of the most crowded, slow-moving corridors in the West Mids. 

 

Birmingham New St/International is only 10 minutes, and International has the capacity for a decent turnround time in the platform, which New St does not ! Plus of course it gives a direct service for people from the Airport and NEC, and an easier place to change trains for passengers on other services to International.

 

I agree 100% about Bangor/Caernarfon; How that line came to be closed in the first place, with that decision then compounded by not safeguarding the formation, is just astonishing.

 

[Ben B]

Quote

I agree 100% about Bangor/Caernarfon; How that line came to be closed in the first place, with that decision then compounded by not safeguarding the formation, is just astonishing.

 

Especially as it lasted so long; even to the point of being used as an emergency freightliner terminal when the Britannia Bridge was knocked-out by the fire.  I can see that the large station building would have been costly to BR, and they'd have wanted to make a little money selling off the land for redevelopment... but I'd imagine the line could have survived as a single-platform, single track, single-car-DMU 4-times-a-day into a wasteland/car park sort of operation through the 70's and 80's.  So many other lines made it that far and survived in a similar condition, and expanding the line now would be a doddle.  I'd imagine the cost of putting just that sort of operation in nowadays would be hideous; probably into the tens of millions and four-dozen feasibility studies before concluding it's too expensive.

[mikejames]

if I understand correctly, the welsh highland railway have thoughts about Bangor- Caernarfon.

It would be worth asking if a 'tourist line' or a standard gauge line would be better value for money.

(welsh highland have 'the card' which gives locals a discount)

Who knows what tourism will look like in a few years time.

 

I would suggest a look at bangor -caernafon , bangor - amlwch, the conwy valley, llandudno and llanduduno junction

( i.e. LNW rather than GWR north west wales) to see what  integrated service in needed and could be provided at what cost.

My own view is that all would need massive subsidies - so comes down to asking 'what is (welsh) government policy

in this area'.

 

Another question is ' what is the role of Holyhead after we leave the EU?.

 

mike james

 

[Zomboid]

With regards to Bangor - Caernarfon, what would the train service be? Chester - Caernarfon? Llandudno - Caernarfon? Just a shuttle from Bangor wouldn't necessarily be what the users would be wanting, especially tourists.

 

The other lines up there seem pretty neglected other than the main Chester - Holyhead. How Llandudno doesn't justify a Sunday service at all is beyond me, and the in the summer at least the Conwy valley should be able to support a few more trains, including some on a Sunday. It does run to a major tourist honeypot at Betwys y Coed for a start, and Llanrwst has something going for it too.

[DIRTY DIESEL]

Llandudno & BF did have an all year round Sunday service from last December timetable change until the flood closed the BF branch in February. 
BF branch closed till September now, we’ve had a few stone/spoil trains up the BF branch in the last two weeks. 
Slate waste will start running from January, train will start from the Buxton area and will be loaded up in the old Glan Conwy Freight yard (the old oil dept road next to BF branch). Phase two is to run trains from BF. Llandudno Junction yard will be cleared of the jungle once the summer nesting season is over. We have asked that we (NR) can stable units/tampers in the old yard next to where the old mess rooms & TCI office use to be. 
 

Stu

LJ Signaller 

[CazRail]

19 hours ago, mikejames said:

re Conwy valley.

Does any one know what's going on

Its listed as closed until September.

I know there was a flood back in feb, and its not a 'high priority' issue

but this seems a long time to fix.

I just don't know where to look to see if its 'a big job' or 'a not urgent problem'.

any pointers to NRs thinking would be welcome.

( I have a 'second home' about twenty yards from the line!!)

mike james

The actual repair work is now completed,  there have been ballast drops this last week(14 in total). The line's closure has been extended to last the summer now, as NR have identified work that can be done to further protect the line from future high tide events. 

 

Im not sure how NR have prioritised the line, but this time the work was done in-house rather than use a contractor. 

[DavidLong]

19 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

  As far as I know Conwy Valley is meant to be getting a converted tube set (D train) at some point.

 

 

Ben,

 

Last I heard was that all the D trains are going to another neglected route, Bidston to Wrexham, and the Conwy Valley line will stay with Sprinters for the time being. I just hope that the 'Welsh' D trains turn out to be more reliable than the Marston Vale variety. Bidston to Wrexham needs to be (literally) plugged into the Merseyrail network but that seems to have been kicked into some very long grass.

I despair of the Conwy Valley line, it seems to be closed more often than it is open these days.The only person who appreciates the situation is Llew Jones who runs the replacement bus service. The line is close to our second home in Old Colwyn (which we can't visit at present!) and I rarely get a chance to travel on it. In November 2018 I did a complete photo survey of all the stations on the line. No trains that day as Arriva was short of units!

I can't help but think that the stations could do with thinning out a bit which could speed up the service a little. I have no idea why Dolgarrog keeps getting rebuilt as there is very little habitation nearby and Dolgarrog itself is on the other side of the river. Pont-y Pant is quite delightful but seemingly serves no purpose and I suspect that much the same  could be said of Roman Bridge.

Good news about the slate waste traffic though!

 

David

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by DavidLong

[Zomboid]

From what I recall, the plan for the D trains was to initially be used for Chester - Crewe and the Borderlands lines, and then once some of the other new trains are in service they'd leave the Crewe line and head to the Conwy valley. But I could be wrong about that.

 

Given that it serves quite a lot of tourist places, you'd think more than the 4 or 5 a day service that is presently available would work in the height of the season. Maybe not on December Tuesdays, but May to September at least. Still, good news that there is now a Sunday timetable with trains on it at least.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, DavidLong said:

 

I can't help but think that the stations could do with thinning out a bit which could speed up the service a little. I have no idea why Dolgarrog keeps getting rebuilt as there is very little habitation nearby and Dolgarrog itself is on the other side of the river. Pont-y Pant is quite delightful but seemingly serves no purpose and I suspect that much the same  could be said of Roman Bridge.

Good news about the slate waste traffic though!

 

I watched a train come and go at Pont-y-Pant 25 years ago, when staying in the youth hostel just up the road.  I don't think there was anyone else about that evening.  Not sure if the service was interrupted during the 2017-18 financial year, but I just happen to have the ORR passenger figures to hand:

Betws-y-Coed 35322

Blaenau Ffestiniog 39932

Deganwy 10940

Dolgarrog 612

Dolwyddelan 3442

Glan Conwy 3166

Llandudno 305280

Llanrwst 12606

North Llanrwst 1942

Pont-y-Pant 842

Roman Bridge 942

Tal-y-Cafn 1148

Eight of those stations are in the quietest 10% on the UK network, Dolgarrog almost in the bottom 1%.  Llandudno must be one of the busiest stations in the UK not to have a Sunday service.

[Ben B]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I watched a train come and go at Pont-y-Pant 25 years ago, when staying in the youth hostel just up the road.  I don't think there was anyone else about that evening.  Not sure if the service was interrupted during the 2017-18 financial year, but I just happen to have the ORR passenger figures to hand:

Betws-y-Coed 35322

Blaenau Ffestiniog 39932

Deganwy 10940

Dolgarrog 612

Dolwyddelan 3442

Glan Conwy 3166

Llandudno 305280

Llanrwst 12606

North Llanrwst 1942

Pont-y-Pant 842

Roman Bridge 942

Tal-y-Cafn 1148

Eight of those stations are in the quietest 10% on the UK network, Dolgarrog almost in the bottom 1%.  Llandudno must be one of the busiest stations in the UK not to have a Sunday service.

 

The Conwy Valley Line was, I believe, affected by flooding in 2017... to be honest it seems to be so most years, and not exactly quick to reopen.  As for other passenger figures, frankly if there aren't the trains there, and the ones which are timetabled are frequently (or even randomly) cut, then people will turn away from them I suppose. 

 

Dolgarrog is a bit of a wasted opportunity, being so relatively close to the Surf Snowdonia attraction; if there was an easier way to get from there to the station -such as the embryonic Dolgarrog Railway preservation scheme- then maybe it would see an uplift in traffic.  Though I doubt surfer types travel much by train (probably no room on a 153 for surfboards!)  But being as for most of the last year or more it hasn't had a platform, it might be a tad tricky to get on and off

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

Not too off topic I hope. I have been rereading “The railways of Wales circa 1900” by Gwyn Brwnant Jones and Denis Dunstone. In chapter 8 they discuss travelling between north and south Wales by train. The best journey time they found from the published timetables of that time was as follows:

Amlwch          dep 7.40 am

Gaerwen          arr 8.35 am

                        dep 8.38 am

Menai Bridge  arr 8.51 am

                        dep 8.56 am

Afon Wen       arr 10.40 am

                        dep 10.45 am

Glandovey Jn  arr 1.10 pm

                        dep 1.45 pm

Aberystwyth   arr 2.10 pm

                        dep 2.40 pm

Pencader         arr 4.40 pm

                        dep 4.53 pm

Carmarthen Jn arr 5.54 pm

                        dep 6.08 pm

Cardiff                        arr 9.30 pm

                        dep 10.00 pm

Barry Town     arr 10.26 pm

Taxi to Barry Island

Now this is a bit extreme, as not many people would start from Amlwch or want to go all the way to Barry Island, but it is noticeable they very little of the time would have been spent on station platforms. It was necessary to go via Cardiff as there was no late enough train from Bridgend to Barry – and there was no late train to Barry Island.

They also looked at an inland route via the Mid Wales line but that took two days.

Even then, though, it was much quicker via England – dep Amlwch 7.40 am, arr Barry Island 4.12 pm with 4 changes.

Jonathan

[John-Miles]

As this has become a thread about reopening lines rather than new stations, there are two valleys to the east of Maesteg (Ogmore  and Garw) which would be at least as good a candidate in terms of population served as those lines being mentioned. The reopening of Valley lines in the past 20 years (Aberdare, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale) has gone well and so why not open up a couple more? Also a possible extension north from Maesteg to serve Cymmer and the Afan Valle.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, John-Miles said:

As this has become a thread about reopening lines rather than new stations, there are two valleys to the east of Maesteg (Ogmore  and Garw) which would be at least as good a candidate in terms of population served as those lines being mentioned. The reopening of Valley lines in the past 20 years (Aberdare, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale) has gone well and so why not open up a couple more? Also a possible extension north from Maesteg to serve Cymmer and the Afan Valle.

I believe that in the 1980s, when re-opening to Maesteg was being proposed, the line was actually to end at Caerau, another mile or so beyond.  Sadly some of the route seems to have been built on now.