44XX 12 Spoke Driving Wheels

[DCB]

I have always understood 44XX had 4ft 1 1/2" 10 spoke driving wheels, but Churchward Locomotives by Brian Haresnape and Alex Swain there is a picture of 4408 at Tondu in 1951 which looks very much like it has 12 spoke driving wheels.    It also has new outside steam pipe cylinders but square drop ends.   Just wondering if it received new driving wheels at some stage.  The older four foot one and a half wheel panniers also had 12 spoke wheels as far as I can tell as did the 16XX.   There is also a picture of 4406 which also could well have 12 spoke wheels in Russel though it is a bit indistinct.  Can anyone confirm or deny, and quote sources please.

[Miss Prism]

The original wheel for the 44xx was a small boss 10-spoke, 12" crank throw.

 

 

You're right about later 4' 1 1/2" wheeled Wolverhampton tanks having 12 spokes, but offhand I'm not sure whether any were 12" throw. I can't recall the Tondu picture, but if replacement 12-spoke wheels had been used, then they would need to be 12" throw. I don't think Swindon had such a wheel.

 

Wolverhampton did its own wheel castings, and had different spoke profiles to Swindon ones.

 

[Hal Nail]

The prairie papers no. 3 clearly shows 4408 in 1951 (same photo in the roundhouse with a bigger tank behind? R. M. Casserley) with different wheels - much more prominent balance weights and although you cant definitively count spokes, they are closer together and a totally different appearance (the 10 spoke wheels are flat faced whereas the 12 spoke wheel spokes appear to angle back slightly from the boss towards the rims. Difficult to describe but looks different).

 

The two pictures of 4406 have outside steam pipes in 1947 and 1952. The wheels arent very clear but look like 10 spoke spacing. The balance weights look like they might be more prominent though and the wheels do look less "flat" that the originals but it could just be the angle and the light on filthy wheels. Would like to see a clearer photo.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Hal Nail

[corneliuslundie]

Not a primary source but Mike Sharman's "Wheel specifications for the modeller" says 10 spoke, 24 inch stroke, crank pins in-line.

No other locos with 4 ft 1 in. wheels are listed and those oddities such as the crane tank and SRMs with 4 ft 1.5 in. driving wheels are shown as having 12 spokes. Could such wheels have been available and used as later replacements?

Jonathan

[JimC]

12 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

There is also a picture of 4406 which also could well have 12 spoke wheels in Russel though it is a bit indistinct.  Can anyone confirm or deny, and quote sources please.

If you mean fig 360 in Russell I'm pretty confident those are 10 spoke.
Whilst one may not post full images, scanning the book photos and posting them cropped down to the wheels only would be within the fair dealing clauses.

 

[DCB]

13 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The prairie papers no. 3 clearly shows 4408 in 1951 (same photo in the roundhouse with a bigger tank behind? R. M. Casserley) with different wheels - much more prominent balance weights and although you cant definitively count spokes, they are closer together and a totally different appearance (the 10 spoke wheels are flat faced whereas the 12 spoke wheel spokes appear to angle back slightly from the boss towards the rims. Difficult to describe but looks different).

 

The two pictures of 4406 have outside steam pipes in 1947 and 1952. The wheels arent very clear but look like 10 spoke spacing. The balance weights look like they might be more prominent though and the wheels do look less "flat" that the originals but it could just be the angle and the light on filthy wheels. Would like to see a clearer photo.

 

Excellent. Many thanks for the confirmation.

 

11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Not a primary source but Mike Sharman's "Wheel specifications for the modeller" says 10 spoke, 24 inch stroke, crank pins in-line.

No other locos with 4 ft 1 in. wheels are listed and those oddities such as the crane tank and SRMs with 4 ft 1.5 in. driving wheels are shown as having 12 spokes. Could such wheels have been available and used as later replacements?

Jonathan

Thanks, all the other pics apart from the late ones of 4406 and 4408 clearly show 10 spoke wheels but

Markits catalogue for 2013 lists the 44XX wheels as 16mm 12 spoke.

I was hoping more 44XX had the 12 spoke in later years as although I have a set of fine scale 16mm 10 spoke wheels they look far too flimsy to stand the brutal treatment my locos endure so was hoping to be able to use Romfords.   Even Summer 1955 is stretching things for my 1957 -1960 era and I don't think 4408 was one of the last 3 withdrawals of September 1955

[The Johnster]

Tondu's real 44xx wheels took some pretty brutal treatment.  The locos were used on the Porthcawl Branch, which had some very tight curves at North Cornelly.  All locos bar the 44xx were restricted to 5mph here and the 44xx were allowed 15mph, at the cost of having to be turned weekly to even out flange wear.  This may have some bearing (sorry) on the wheels under 44xx at Tondu.  I would assume that the locos were repaired if necessary apart from main workshop visits at Ebbw Jc, the main shed for the 86 area, which had facilities to lift a loco and change wheels easily.

[tomparryharry]

Eric Mountford looks in, via his book about Caerphilly Works. 

 

44xx at Caerphilly. 4403/6/8/10.