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Did the Black 5 ever run with a Fowler tender?


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Hi all,

I just wanted to know if the Stanier Black 5 ever ran with a Fowler tender. I can find loads of pictures with the Fowler tender being pulled by Jubilee's, Scots etc. But I cannot find any of the black 5 pulling a Fowler tender.

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I have never seen a photo of one with anything but a 4000 gallon tender, the only significant variation being the self weighing tenders.

There doesn't seem to be any reason why the Fowler tender wouldn't fit, 8Fs and Jubilees swapped tenders and I think the Stanier 2-6-0 has run with a Stanier tender in preservation.

Why anyone would want to fit a Fowler tender to a Black 5 is another question,  It's not like the GWR  tenders where you could get more coal on the 3500 gallon Churchward than on the 4000 gallon Collett.

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It is all to do with a restoration of an old Hornby tender drive Black 5 I am doing. I have a Coronation tender which chassis wise looks the same as the Black 5. But the Black 5 tender body does not fit. But the fowler body I believe does. As I have been informed that Hornby used the tender chassis from the midland compound for the Coronation class engine. Would make it a lot cheaper to do if all I needed to buy was a fowler body rather than having to buy a complete tender.

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I wonder if you could cut down the Coronation tender body which I believe was the Stanier 4000 gallon 10 ton coal  pusher tender to represent the Stanier 9 ton non pusher Black 5 tender?      Is the fitting issue for the black 5 tender on the coronation chassis just the attachment lugs or is it more fundamental?  I have never had a coronation tender but I had a Black 5 or two before I banned traction tyres. The best had an X04 motor in the loco and a powered tender. It would have been great if the tender and the loco had run at the same speed.

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Hi David,

It is a problem at the engine end of the tender where the fittings are slightly different. I have adjusted the Black 5 tender body to fit the chassis. But it is a very loose fitting and will need tacking down with a little glue. So not a perfect solution.. I will if I use this tender probably use silicone gel as the glue. This means I will be able to separate the body from the chassis if needed with no damage to either. Yes I built a Black 5 with the motor in the engine. Added some weights and it runs great. People do not realise that the base chassis of the original tender drive Black 5 is based on the B12/Hall. The chassis I used still had the gearing fitted to the driving axel.

Edited by cypherman
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20 hours ago, cypherman said:

... I have been informed that Hornby used the tender chassis from the midland compound for the Coronation class engine. Would make it a lot cheaper to do if all I needed to buy was a fowler body rather than having to buy a complete tender.

Doubt that will work, Deeley and Fowler 'Midland practise' tenders were shorter wheelbase than the standard Stanier 4,000 gallon type. I'd suggest your idea of 'tacking down' the 9 ton bunker body you have is a good option.

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On 06/06/2020 at 20:44, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I just wanted to know if the Stanier Black 5 ever ran with a Fowler tender. I can find loads of pictures with the Fowler tender being pulled by Jubilee's, Scots etc. But I cannot find any of the black 5 pulling a Fowler tender.

Is there a reason why the Black 5 didn't run with Fowler tenders, given that other Stanier 4-6-0s clearly did?

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In the book "The Lads from Liverpool" page 47 bottom right, there's a small photo of a Black 5 (identified by the caption writer as 44894 at Liverpool Lime Street in December 1964) which appears to my eyes to be equipped with a Fowler tender.

 

I contacted the publisher Silver Link in an attempt to see if the photographer could provide any more detail, e.g. a bigger, clearer copy of the photo, but without getting very far.

 

Unless anyone can provide further information, I would take this, if my conclusion is correct, that at least one Black 5 did at that time have a Fowler tender fitted but for how long and why, I have no idea.

 

Stan

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That's a possibility but the sides of the tender in the photo extend higher up than those on the self-weighing tenders and are definitely the shape of those on a Fowler tender.  The self-weighing tenders had inset bunkers, something like the WDs, as far as I have seen in any photos.

 

I'm happy to be corrected but have you looked at the photo that I mentioned in my previous post?

 

Stan

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I'm afraid I don't have the book.

 

But as far as I know no Black Five ever got a Fowler tender. It's either a self weighing tender or a misidentified locomotive.

 

I'll have a look in the Irwell books later (if I've got the relevant volume). I have been looking.

 

So far I've got 44894 was built with an Ivatt part welded tender with short spring hangers, flat air vents and water sieve boxes.

 

Photos of it in 1968 show a Stanier tender.

 

https://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p407312067/h3EE89DB#h3ee89db

 

https://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p407312067/h3957B3E9#h3957b3e9

 

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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Having a quick look through relevant books I can't find any evidence of Black Fives with anything other than normal 4000 gallon tenders.

 

With these notable exceptions.

 

45235 got the Corridor tender between 12/1959 and 1/1966. Although by then it was virtually a normal tender with the corridor removed.

 

The three original Princess tenders were rebuilt and used as normal tenders with Black Fives. They had already lost the slab sides. But had slight differences. They went into the general pool.

 

Plus the four self weighing tenders.

 

10590 - 4965, 44986, 45081, 44986

10591 - 4966, 4971, 4901, 5462, 4923, 4995, 4901, 44971, 45298

10836 - 44696, 44697

10837 - 44697, 44677

 

I'll add the dates later.

 

 

All this information comes from Locomotives In Detail: Stanier 4-6-0 Class Five by Jennison and Clarke. Which also corroborates with other sources. Which I'll list if anyone wants me to, but they are all from the likes of Jenkinson and similar.

 

 

 

Jason

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Yes, I have pretty much every book published on Black 5s which is why on seeing the photo to which I referred, I was astonished and contacted the publisher to seek confirmation that what I was looking at was what I stated.  Although the photo is sufficiently clear that I can see that the tender's sides look like those of the Fowler tenders, it is one quarter of a page in an A5 size book so not very large.  I've scanned it so others can judge for themselves.

 

Stan872097177_SideView036.jpg.4e4172e6f33125bbad883c66d5412041.jpg

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2 hours ago, Stanley Melrose said:

Yes, I have pretty much every book published on Black 5s which is why on seeing the photo to which I referred, I was astonished and contacted the publisher to seek confirmation that what I was looking at was what I stated.  Although the photo is sufficiently clear that I can see that the tender's sides look like those of the Fowler tenders, it is one quarter of a page in an A5 size book so not very large.  I've scanned it so others can judge for themselves.

 

Stan872097177_SideView036.jpg.4e4172e6f33125bbad883c66d5412041.jpg

 

I'm no no position to comment on the photo at all, but if it is of any interest, Volume 2 of the RCTS Black 5 history, John Jennison quotes this engine as having three tenders in it's life: Welded 10519, Welded 9510 and Riveted 9200, the last paired January 1960.

 

Best 

 

Scott.

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I have the RCTS books as well as the 5 Irwell Press ones and several others but hadn't bothered to investigate their contents.  I admit that Mike Edge's comments made me look again at the larger photo rather than the small one in the book to which I referred and I'm very inclined to agree that the sides of the tender do turn over as those of good Stanier tenders should.  Shame I hadn't scanned the photo before but it seems that all the quoted sources are correct and that Black 5s were never equipped with anything other than Stanier 4000 gallon tenders.

 

QED and goodnight . . . 

 

Stan

PS Jason where do you sit at Anfield for Liverpool games?

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8 hours ago, Stanley Melrose said:

In the book "The Lads from Liverpool" page 47 bottom right, there's a small photo of a Black 5 (identified by the caption writer as 44894 at Liverpool Lime Street in December 1964) which appears to my eyes to be equipped with a Fowler tender.


Here’s another picture of 44894, dated December 1964, and it definitely has a Stanier tender:

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p772381711/h1A10A57C

 

 

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4 hours ago, Stanley Melrose said:

Yes, I have pretty much every book published on Black 5s which is why on seeing the photo to which I referred, I was astonished and contacted the publisher to seek confirmation that what I was looking at was what I stated.  Although the photo is sufficiently clear that I can see that the tender's sides look like those of the Fowler tenders, it is one quarter of a page in an A5 size book so not very large.  I've scanned it so others can judge for themselves.

 

Stan872097177_SideView036.jpg.4e4172e6f33125bbad883c66d5412041.jpg

Hi Folks,

 

That is a Stanier tender as the snap head riveted tenders of the Fowler variety shewed clearly the slope of the coal bunker, the sloped sides of the coal bunker of the Stanier tenders attached to the side sheets of the tender body at the point indicated by the line of rivets just above the line of the lower edge of the cab windows. The other giveaway is that the Stanier tenders have five columns of rivets attaching the stiffeners to the upper bunker raves where as the Fowler tenders only had four columns of rivets.

 

I have form with both Stanier and Fowler tenders having built the tenders currently trailed by 45407, 44871 and 42765, although they were of welded construction this did not affect the manner of plating up the construct only the method of attachment.

 

Gibbo.

Edited by Gibbo675
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Going back to the original post, a minor is relevent...

 

MR Compound 1000 does not have a Fowler tender, it has a Deeley tender, I understand from an S&D 7f.

When Hornby made 1000 they also used made a correct Deeley tender for 1000 and later used it with Princess 6200.

 

However Hornby has made a Fowler tender used with the Patriot (riveted variety) and reused later with compound 41043.

Later Hornby inherited the Airfix Fowler tender used with the 4F and more recently upgraded it to use with 8f 48045.
 

Both these tenders have a shorter wheel base than the tender used with 1000 and 6200.

 

if your seeking to use a Hornby 1000 Compound tender body with a Black 5, it is certainly a Deeley tender, if it’s black ex-41043 it is a shorter Fowler version and won’t fit a Hornby coronation chassis.  If it’s an ex-Airfix 4f Fowler, it wont fit anything Hornby.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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10 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Is there a reason why the Black 5 didn't run with Fowler tenders, given that other Stanier 4-6-0s clearly did?

Black 5’s were a “standard” and could go long distances, it would be counter to standard having mixed tenders across the fleet.

 

Scots, Jubilees were built with Fowler’s. (As well as Compound, Crab, Stanier Crab and 4f).


There was a move to switch Fowler tenders to locos which run shorter distances, so 8f’s swapped with  Scots, Jubilees &  Rebuilt Patriots. 

 

This made Rebuilt & unrebuilt Scots, Rebuilt Patriots & Jubilees standard later in life for longer distance work.


But scrapping Fowlers and new building Stanier would have been an expensive Luxury, when 8f’s weren’t going long distance but pootling  around with a government subsidised superior war time Stanier tender, though doubtlessly this was the long term aspiration, once the myriad of pre1923 tenders had been eradicated.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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