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Signalling a WR 1950s station


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A while back you were kind enough to help with signalling ‘Camel Bridge Junction’ - Cornish layout in clay country strongly based on the Newquay branch and set in the early 1960s before significant rationalisation 

 

Now I’ve slightly extended the layout to allow 8 coach summer trains and added a second platform so trains can pass. This does mean the loop

extends over the crossing so longer trains block this. No idea if this is prototypical but in my rule 1 the original loop was much shorter and it was later extended by the GWR

 

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Im struggling to work out how it should be signalled, especially the siding to the exchange sidings and clay works. Here’s the diagram

 

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Its a passing station but a freight only branch so the top (presumably down?) platform needs to be bi directional. This is what I’m struggling to signal and the siding to the clay - as it comes off part way along the loop 

 

Here’s what I’ve come up with so far.

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Any suggestions on this and how I signal the clay sidings would be great. Thanks so much

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Edited by TomJ
Edited because a house was in the middle of the road!!!
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The big problem you have now got is the loop extending over the level crossing.  No problem for the short platform where you have a signal protecting the level crossing and no problem coming in from the left where you have a signal at the place where the loop spilts - so far we are as per your sketch.

 

But for trains coming from the right there has to be a signal at the end of the long platform protecting the level crossing and in usual GWR practice there would then be a second signal pritecting the double to single line connection, as included in your sketch.  Normally you should avoid trains standing on the level crossing while at the station but it did happen in the real world at some places - but not for long and in your case it is little more than a minor road.

 

As for the signals to/from the clay sidings area you need only look at my photos on page 4 of the thread linked below - you would have something like the signal at Bugle to get you in (the one protecting the level crossing) and a standard siding signal to come out (I see you have a trap point in the right place - those are exactly what up you would find in such a situation in the 1950s.

 

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Thanks that is so useful. Especially the link because Bugle/Goonbarrow is basically my inspiration. 
 

so if I’ve read you correctly I need signals to protect the level crossing in both directions. Does it matter than in case of trains running from the right there is less than one train length between that and end of the loop signal?

 

Finally - sorry to keep pestering - the short platform has to be bidirectional because of traffic coming off the branch. So presumably I need to protect the level crossing and the clay siding. Would this be a normal post or a ground signal (sorry for incorrect terminology!)?

 

Thanks again 

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3 hours ago, TomJ said:

Thanks that is so useful. Especially the link because Bugle/Goonbarrow is basically my inspiration. 
 

so if I’ve read you correctly I need signals to protect the level crossing in both directions. Does it matter than in case of trains running from the right there is less than one train length between that and end of the loop signal?

 

Finally - sorry to keep pestering - the short platform has to be bidirectional because of traffic coming off the branch. So presumably I need to protect the level crossing and the clay siding. Would this be a normal post or a ground signal (sorry for incorrect terminology!)?

 

Thanks again 

1.  it doesn't matter if there is less than a train length between those two signals (very GWR in fact ;) )

2. You would need a 'proper' semaphore signal to protect the level crossing on the other loop line for train coming from the right.

 

One thing you need to think very carefully about is that while putting in all the necessary signals, particularly following Western practice is that you might end o up witha veritable forest of signals athough fortunately your loop ppoints are now quite a long way from the level crossing and that will help reduce that problem.

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 I would have thought the home signal would be locked by the crossing gates so the trains could not be admitted to the station in either direction without the gates being open to trains.  it's not as if the GWR gave a single thought to the inconvenience to road users.

The level crossing just off the platform end was/ is quite common where the ground was fairly level, in fact its unusual not to have a bridge or level crossing at or near a station.  

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3 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 I would have thought the home signal would be locked by the crossing gates so the trains could not be admitted to the station in either direction without the gates being open to trains.....

Yes. Even with a Starting signal immediately in rear of the gates, for any train to enter the platforms from R to L the gates would have to be bolted across the road before the Home could be cleared (as happens to this day at Blue Anchor :-) ).

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6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 I would have thought the home signal would be locked by the crossing gates so the trains could not be admitted to the station in either direction without the gates being open to trains.  it's not as if the GWR gave a single thought to the inconvenience to road users.

The level crossing just off the platform end was/ is quite common where the ground was fairly level, in fact its unusual not to have a bridge or level crossing at or near a station.  

Yes but don't forget that once at train was stationary in the platform it would be permissible to open the gates for road traffic providing the protecting signal was at danger.  I can't immediately think of many GWR locations where a platform end level crossing was not immediately protected by a signal between the end of the platform and the level crossings, especially where trains crossed (but I'm open to further information of course).

 

 

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8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

......I can't immediately think of many GWR locations where a platform end level crossing was not immediately protected by a signal between the end of the platform and the level crossings, especially where trains crossed.......

.

 

 In which case, Mike, you've forgotten about Williton, where between 1937 and 1967 the Up Starting was in advance of the crossing by a few yards :-) But admittedly it was certainly a rare occurrence

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2 hours ago, RailWest said:

Yes. Even with a Starting signal immediately in rear of the gates, for any train to enter the platforms from R to L the gates would have to be bolted across the road before the Home could be cleared (as happens to this day at Blue Anchor :-) ).

 

At Grays there were frequent complaints about how long the crossing gates were closed for, so a calling-on arm was added to the home  to allow trains into the platform with the gates still open. I expect a similar solution was used in other locations too. That’s probably not necessary in the OP’s situation though, Grays being on a relatively busy line (and nowhere near the GW either). 

Edited by Titanius Anglesmith
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4 hours ago, RailWest said:

 In which case, Mike, you've forgotten about Williton, where between 1937 and 1967 the Up Starting was in advance of the crossing by a few yards :-) But admittedly it was certainly a rare occurrence

I hadn't entirely forgotten it but it took a minute or two - which was why in my draft I altered 'any' to 'many' ;) 

 

Of course the opposite situation, mainly on double lines, was where a level crossing was protected by only a single stop signal, often literally only a few yards in rear of the crossing,  and a train running at maximum permitted speed could quite legitimately  approach that level crossing with its gates across the railway and only the distant signal at caution to indicate to the driver that he should be prepared to stop at the signal protecting the crossing.  Interesting, and possibly confusing, conflict of logic there.

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On 15/06/2020 at 17:14, The Stationmaster said:

I hadn't entirely forgotten it but it took a minute or two - which was why in my draft I altered 'any' to 'many' ;) 

 

Of course the opposite situation, mainly on double lines, was where a level crossing was protected by only a single stop signal, often literally only a few yards in rear of the crossing,  and a train running at maximum permitted speed could quite legitimately  approach that level crossing with its gates across the railway and only the distant signal at caution to indicate to the driver that he should be prepared to stop at the signal protecting the crossing.  Interesting, and possibly confusing, conflict of logic there.

 

I've heard of some that didn't have any stop signals, just the distants, with the red target on the gates being considered sufficient as a stop signal.

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2 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

I've heard of some that didn't have any stop signals, just the distants, with the red target on the gates being considered sufficient as a stop signal.

Indeed there were, but they were simply remote intermediate locations in a block section with just a small ground-frame, no loop or platforms. 

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7 hours ago, RailWest said:

Indeed there were, but they were simply remote intermediate locations in a block section with just a small ground-frame, no loop or platforms. 

I wouldn't have ruled out a halt platform and/or possibly a single siding but neither would have any link with the signals, the siding point being released by the single line token. Whether there were any locations where that was actually the case I don't know (at least not without a lot of work trawling through books). Incidentally, such locations featured working distant signals for obvious reasons, one of the very rare occasions where the GWR used working distants on single lines. I believe that there was at least one location where two level crossings in close succession both slotted the same distant signal, which only cleared if both crossings were open.

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11 hours ago, bécasse said:

I wouldn't have ruled out a halt platform and/or possibly a single siding but neither would have any link with the signals, the siding point being released by the single line token. ....

Not necessarily IMHO, thinking of places such as Staverton or Cove which did have worked signals, although those at Cove went at an early date.

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The only real oddity I can think of was Cwm Prysor where the level crossing remained ground frame controlled after a signal box was provided (and the ground frame for the level crossing still remained after the signal box was closed).  The signal box would seem to have been able to switch out which no doubt partially explains retention of the level crossing ground frame because it obviously couldn't shut the line was open to traffic.  In one direction the level crossing was definitely protected by slotting a signal operated by the signal box but available information is unclear what the situation was in the opposite direction as no slot is shown on the SRS diagram and I can't trace any photos of the relevant stop signal.

 

I can't think of anywhere else off hand where there was a ground frame controlled level crossing close to pointwork that didn't involve a signal box but as there were quite a lot of GF controlled crossing on the GWR it could well have been the case somewhere.

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