fixing trackto baseboards

[stephenpotter]

Good morning, some advice please on a subject that has been discussed many times but for which I am presently unable to find an answer to suit my problem!

I've just started to lay track on a fiddle yard/sector plate as a first stage in a long planned for layout.   The yard is 18mm chipboard on 69mm x 18mm framing with all over 5mm cork fixed with pva bonding, not pva adhesive. C & L track laid placed on the cork gives very quiet running but as soon as the track is fixed the increase in sound level is very noticeable.  I've experimented with fixing the track with decorator's caulk  and copydex with no difference in sound levels apparent. I've also glued foam on a test piece of 18mm mdf and then glued track to that, still very noisy!  Best result found by using double sided tape to fix track to cork which gives very quiet running however I foresee problems in laying track to the tape  when trying to follow curves and see from this forum that the tape can lose its grip after a while. If the track is ballasted  after using the tape, both for cosmetic reasons and to ensure it stays in place, does anyone know if the ballasting will increase noise levels. On the other hand am I expecting too much?  Does everyone accept noisy running ? Any advice would be very welcome.  

[Guest Half-full]

Any ballasting will increase noise levels unfortunately as your are creating a solid bond between board and track, many people swear by Copydex to quieten things down a bit.

 

My chosen method is to use 5mm foamboard stuck with double-sided carpet tape to the baseboards, then fix the track down with the same tape to the foamboard.  I don't encounter any problems curving track, I wait until I have the correct formation/flow before firmly pressing the track into place, I then leave heavy books over the trackwork for a couple of days to get the best bond.

 

When ballasting I just use the pva/water/washing up liquid method.  I find its a bit quieter but not that much.  

 

I first used the double sided tape method to stick track to cork approaching 30 years ago, my friend still has the layout and there has never been any lifting of the track.

[ITG]

Just a short comment re any plans to reuse the track in the future. I used double sided tape to hold track on Powerbase plates, and also the plates onto cork on an incline. It did stick pretty well, but I’ve just lifted it to create a new layout, and the tape was very difficult to separate cork from plates. It required a prolonged soak in meths to remove the adhesive. Less of an issue to be fair removing from the underside of track.

[The Johnster]

The construction of the board, with the chipboard top and the framing, makes an amplifying sound box.  Personally, I don't mind this and like the noise, and have made cut in the rail heads at scale 40 or 60 foot intervals to get the clickety click sound, but as Half-full has said, if the trackbed is bonded to the board and the track is solidly pva-ed to the bed,  or as in my case directly to the board, there is nothing to dampen the vibrations that are the source of the noise.  If this is important to you, for instance because others in the household are being irritated by it, I'd suggest filling the void beneath the board and the framing pieces with foam rubber, or expanded polystyrene, which will deaden the vibrations and cut noise levels.

[BR60103]

Instead of PVA, consider Acrylic Matt Medium or Woodland Scenics Scenery Cement which do not dry quite so solidly. Or WS Foam Glue.

I've wondered about putting something (Wax paper?) between the roadbed and the baseboard, then removing it after the glue & ballast has set.

 

[Ian J.]

I too have just lifted some track from some older boards so I could reuse them, and found that the double sided sticky tape I'd used didn't always come away easily. To make things easier for for reuse, I'm wondering if artists spraymount combined with track pins might be a better way to go. However, track pins do not look good on scenic parts of a layout, but on fiddleyard areas it would be okay.

 

Regarding noise levels, I've also been wondering how to decrease the sound, but in my searches I've not found anyone suggesting anything that really works. I think the basic problem is that when ballast is fixed down, that kills any other sound deadening materials. Copydex is oft quoted as being a better glue to use, however I don't see universal agreement on it.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ian J.

[Ron Ron Ron]

As The Johnston says, the root of the problem is the choice of materials and method of construction of the baseboard.

It creates a sound board or box that amplifies the noise, i.e. a loudspeaker.

The use of cork or foam roadbed, or board topping and the use of latex based adhesives (e.g. Copydex) or decorators caulk, are attempts to mitigate the vibrations and noise passing from the track to the baseboard.

Some of those attempts are more successful than others.

 

This problem is one of the reasons why many modellers in other countries have taken to using alternative baseboard materials, such as blue and pink extruded foam.

 

 

Can anyone here say if open frame construction and the use of spline trackbed, helps in reducing track noise?

 

 

.

 

[H2O]

If you fix track with anything noise transfer will increase as it is now more physically connected to the board.  Someone has tried a test track, there is a short article at:

 

https://modelrailwayengineer.com/reducing-noise-track/

 

Bit of a promotion for a particular product.  Note that they used stone ballast which may conduct noise better as stone is fairly solid - were ground nut shells used by some?  My intention is to lay track on 5mm foam backed card cut with chamfered edges and then use latex based glue to fix ballast - I hope this will minimise noise.  I've got some cork stashed away but I'm not sure if it is more of an historical product to use and better alternatives are now out there.

 

[RexAshton]

I always use Evo Stick. It's always quiet.....until you ballast it. The sound is transmitted through any underlay if you fix the track with pins. Glueing it keeps it isolated but as soon as you apply PVA to fix the ballast you immediately bond everything solidly together again. Thankfully fiddle yards don't generally need ballasting. Some modellers reckon cutting holes in the side frames reduce noise slightly as it reduces the sound box effect but I've not tried it.

[JimFin]

I have used TrackLay - closed foam roll with a single adhesive side. The adhesive side goes to the underside of the track. Temporarily pin the track in place in place an add a bead of PVA between the shoulder of the foam and the baseboard. Add ballast, no further adhesive needed. The ballast sticks to the exposed adhesive on the foam and the PVA shoulder. Once the PVA is dry, use a foam roller to press the ballast firmly into the adhesive between the sleepers, remove the pins and surplus ballast, then ready for weathering etc. Advantages - Ballasting (which I hate) made easy! The track is not directly fixed to the baseboard and sound transmission is much reduced.  Track can be recovered if you change plans. Disadvantage - you have to create appropriate shapes for points / crossings from straight rolls and do not place under the tie bars. Could end up being expensive for a large layout. Not associated with the supplier, just a satisfied customer. https://www.tracklay.co.uk/

[Sturminster_Newton]

Is not the latest vogue to fix the track to foam mounting board and them gum down the mounting board onto the basifundamold? At least in Chris Nevard Land of micro layouts.

 

A sound practice  that allows the track layout to plotted and schemed away from the sometimes restricted space of a boxfile or photo-crate before the track and substrate is stuck in place.

 

Foamboard also provides a degree of sound isolation, plus if you intend to rebuild on the same basifundamold then stripping down is simplified...

[brossard]

I'm using WS foam underlay and Tacky Glue to fix everything (underlay to board and track to underlay).  When my inevitable mistakes require lifting track, it comes away with very little drama.

 

John

[Pete the Elaner]

On 09/06/2020 at 18:28, RexAshton said:

I always use Evo Stick. It's always quiet.....until you ballast it. The sound is transmitted through any underlay if you fix the track with pins. Glueing it keeps it isolated but as soon as you apply PVA to fix the ballast you immediately bond everything solidly together again. Thankfully fiddle yards don't generally need ballasting. Some modellers reckon cutting holes in the side frames reduce noise slightly as it reduces the sound box effect but I've not tried it.

 

It doesn't seem to work that way.

 

My track is on a layer of cork. It is fixed with Copydex on the front, ballasted with Copydex in the scenic section & pinned in the fiddle yard.

I can hear a large increase in noise when the train passes from the fiddle yard to glued section, then another increase in noise when it gets onto the ballasted section.

Maybe it is relevant that I paint the Copydex onto the cork. If you apply Evo from a tube, do you apply it just to each sleeper or every 3rd/4th one?

It seems sensible to consider the pins transmitting vibration & sound through the cork layer but this doesn't seem as the top layer being held (fairly) firm.

Gluing track with PVA would be much worse because, being a resin, it dries rock hard.

Applying ballast with dilute glue is a bit of a double edged sword because it soaks into the cork & sets. Even a rubber adhesive will be more rigid than dry cork. Applying the glue neat to the top surface makes even harder work of a task which I don't like very much (& it sounds like others don't either).

[DCB]

I have some ballasted track outside which is quiet but it is laid direct onto softwood around 1" thick, when I had some ballasted on 3/8"  fibreboard inside it was very noisy.  I therefore wonder if stiffening the baseboard surface rather than isolating the track from it might work.

I'm pretty sure using individual track bases after the L girder style rather than a large diaphragm like sheet over the framing would reduce noise, you could still use sheeting to support roads and scenery as long as it is isolated from, not glued, to the track beds. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Jeff Smith]

On 08/06/2020 at 04:16, Ron Ron Ron said:

Can anyone here say if open frame construction and the use of spline trackbed, helps in reducing track noise?

Yes, I think it does.  I have a scenic test track that is partly open frame construction however the boards sit on a solid shelf which I believe limits the sound anyway.

[jcm@gwr]

My biggest concern on reading this thread, is not the noise problem,

but that you used chipboard!

It's just about okay as cheap loft flooring, and maybe, once covered in 

melamine, usable in cheap flat-pack furniture, but not baseboards!

[Jeff Smith]

And your objection is?

[ikcdab]

39 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

And your objection is?

I imagine because it's very heavy, needs very good support and susceptible to damp....

[ikcdab]

open frame baseboards are better. On my test track I used 5mm laminate floor underlay, which is closed cell foam. It is easy to use, but vulnerable to crushing and mine has developed many hollows etc.

On my actual layout, I've gone back to 3mm Cork fixed to 9mm ply. Glued with copydex. So far this is much better. 

[Philou]

@ikcdab I was going to post the same except that my grand-daughter decided to write gibberish and then hide my mouse - grrrrrr!

 

I would suggest 10mm plywood that you can also cut to make framing - or use framed extruded polystyrene (I haven't tried it).

 

As to the sound problem, once you glue/track/ballast/underlay, it just forms one solid mass. It has never bothered me though others in the household may not agree! The Johnster's idea of reducing the 'sound-box' effect is another approach.

 

Regarding track pins, you can remove them once the track/ballast/glue has gone orf. Personally, they don't bother me particularly once the track has been weathered.

 

Here's a section of a module under construction - I think there's only one that is really apparent:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Jeff Smith]

53 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I imagine because it's very heavy, needs very good support and susceptible to damp....

Chipboard is heavy but dimensionally stable in a dry atmosphere.  I would not use it as I prefer well supported 6mm ply and open top construction for light weight modules.  However I used 5/8ths over a 2' span for the shelf that the layout sits on.

[OldTom]

On 07/06/2020 at 08:55, stephenpotter said:

Good morning, some advice please on a subject that has been discussed many times but for which I am presently unable to find an answer to suit my problem!

I've just started to lay track on a fiddle yard/sector plate as a first stage in a long planned for layout.   The yard is 18mm chipboard on 69mm x 18mm framing with all over 5mm cork fixed with pva bonding, not pva adhesive. C & L track laid placed on the cork gives very quiet running but as soon as the track is fixed the increase in sound level is very noticeable.  I've experimented with fixing the track with decorator's caulk  and copydex with no difference in sound levels apparent. I've also glued foam on a test piece of 18mm mdf and then glued track to that, still very noisy!  Best result found by using double sided tape to fix track to cork which gives very quiet running however I foresee problems in laying track to the tape  when trying to follow curves and see from this forum that the tape can lose its grip after a while. If the track is ballasted  after using the tape, both for cosmetic reasons and to ensure it stays in place, does anyone know if the ballasting will increase noise levels. On the other hand am I expecting too much?  Does everyone accept noisy running ? Any advice would be very welcome.  

Can anyone please advise which is  the best double sided tape for purchase in the UK? I have used this method many years ago with a really good strong tape, but forgot which tape I used. I have tried several lately but all with much worse results. 

 

Double sided tape is generally useful alternative to liquid adhesives for all sorts of modelling applications, but there are lots of poor quality tapes on the market as I have found out.

Cheers.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by OldTom
Typos

[MR Chuffer]

I've had reasonable success with 1/2 inch white insulation tape, sticky side pressed to the underside of the track, then partly diluted PVA on the other side to be pressed to the board. Gives you time to adjust and if the layout is not quite right, easy to lift and redo.

[OldTom]

51 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I've had reasonable success with 1/2 inch white insulation tape, sticky side pressed to the underside of the track, then partly diluted PVA on the other side to be pressed to the board. Gives you time to adjust and if the layout is not quite right, easy to lift and redo.

Mr Chuffer,

That’s a great idea with single sided. I’ll try that! 

 

I have been using Diall Double Sided Tape, but would like something stronger. Trouble is the very strong tape can get ridiculously expensive.

Cheers

Tom

[MR Chuffer]

20 minutes ago, OldTom said:

 ridiculously expensive

Single sided tape is cheap as chips, I use white so I can see if the ballasting has missed anywhere, and Screwfix PVA, so cheap by the gallon. You could use gaffer tape for something stronger.