Slater's D299 MR Wagon - Wagon Finished

[brossard]

I have been given a built model of a MR wagon.  I'm interested in doing it right.

 

 

 

I've been through my documentation and think it might be a Dia 299 High Sided Wagon from 1882.  The nearest I could find was in Midland Record 14 which has drawings and photos of a later version, Dia 352 from 1906.  This later version has side, end and bottom doors.  D299 might have had bottom doors.

 

I've been through Paul B's collection and didn't see anything, not surprising at all.

 

My era is 1962 ish and I think it might be a stretch to suppose that these would have got as far as that.

 

So, I need to decide how to finish it.  LMS tended to leave the single independent brake on their wagons for as long as possible. 

 

Did LMS actually take these into ownership and when did they get scrapped?

 

TIA

 

John

Edited July 10, 2020 by brossard

[A Murphy]

if you go here, there is lots of information on this topic.

 

 

 

[brossard]

LOL, yes, I googled and found that.  Lots of info but I didn't find the answer to my question.  It's a long thread and wanders around.

 

John

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, brossard said:

LOL, yes, I googled and found that.  Lots of info but I didn't find the answer to my question.  It's a long thread and wanders around.

 

John

 

In brief, what you have is a nicely built example of Slaters kit for D299. These wagons were built between 1882 and c. 1900 as the Midland's standard goods and mineral wagon, with 62,000 built, plus another 10 in 1905 and 1,000 in 1917, making best use of spare material, it would seem. They were the single most numerous design of rolling stock in the pre-Grouping era. They had side and bottom doors; a version of drawing 550 marked up for the last lots built is on the Midland Railway Study Centre website.

 

The answer to your question is in a quite recent post in my wagon-building thread:

Definitely no-go for 1962. It seems fairly clear that withdrawals had started once the earliest wagons reached the age of 30 years. Nevertheless a large number passed to the LMS - photographs of them in early LMS livery are quite common. However, it seems doubtful that many survived very far into the 1930s; I've never come across a photo of one in the 1936 bauxite livery. The latest-dated photos I know of are c. 1936, showing wagons in the first LMS livery c. 1936, one of these is from the 1917 batch [Midland Wagons plates 96 and 99]. 

 

Most of the key issues with the kit are discussed in my opening post:

but there is also a little refinement that can be made to the axleboxes:

Hope that helps. I've found the contributions of others to my thread have never failed to be informative and have done an enormous amount to improve the quality of my modelling.

 

 

[brossard]

Thanks for that Stephen.  I suppose I was looking for date bounds in which to finish the wagon.

 

Nice little detail on the axleboxes, I will have a go at creating that.

 

I will also try to do the bottom door latch.

 

One thing I really must do is make some plasticard inserts with scribed planks.

 

It is down to me to decide whether it is MR or LMS.

 

I have done many threads asking for advice and info and I have never been disappointed.

 

Cheers

 

John

Edited June 7, 2020 by brossard

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, brossard said:

I will also try to do the bottom door latch.

 

That I will look forward to as it's a detail I've never attempted.

 

41 minutes ago, brossard said:

One thing I really must do is make some plasticard inserts with scribed planks.

 

When yo do the interior ironwork, beware that the bolt heads were countersunk into the ironwork so were flush and hence invisible (at 4 mm scale) and the washer plates for the bottom door hinges were sunk into the door planks so that they were flush with the rest of the floor. All to do with not damaging merchandise in transit, I suppose.

[brossard]

Good to know that the bolt heads were countersunk, thanks.  What I might do is drill and insert plastic rod, then sand smooth.  Just to give the impression that something is there.

 

One other point is that as these had bottom doors, I'm thinking they would carry minerals.  Very considerate not to damage the coal.

 

John

Edited June 7, 2020 by brossard

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, brossard said:

Good to know that the bolt heads were countersunk, thanks.  What I might do is drill and insert plastic rod, then sand smooth.  Just to give the impression that something is there.

 

John

 

Above and beyond!

[Hal Nail]

7 hours ago, brossard said:

What I might do is drill and insert plastic rod, then sand smooth.  Just to give the impression that something is there 

There must be easier ways if they are flush! A dab of slightly rusty paint?

[Nick Holliday]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

When you do the interior ironwork, beware that the bolt heads were countersunk into the ironwork so were flush and hence invisible (at 4 mm scale) and the washer plates for the bottom door hinges were sunk into the door planks so that they were flush with the rest of the floor. All to do with not damaging merchandise in transit, I suppose.

I'd always thought that, rather than countersinking the bolt head, which, assuming it was hexagonal, would be an interesting exercise, they would have used coach bolts. The square section prevents the bolt turning once tightened up, no spanner being required on the inside, and the shallow domed heads would not get in the way of shovels too much.

  

[MarcD]

Not all D299's had bottom doors those found on the S&DJR just had a plan floor. Also alot of D299's were sold off to smaller companies before WW1: SECR; B&MR; PD&SWJR as well as numerous light railways. To name a few. Additionally the S&DJR wagons were split between the midland and LSWR in 1914. Also some of the S&DJR wagons had raised ends and others were fitted with tarp bars.

Our S&DJR d299 kit comes with the additional strapped as some had reinforcing plates added to the inside and the 1917 version had extra strapping on the outside(FRWC 17 round end/FRWC17a square end).

Marc

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

I'd always thought that, rather than countersinking the bolt head, which, assuming it was hexagonal, would be an interesting exercise, they would have used coach bolts. The square section prevents the bolt turning once tightened up, no spanner being required on the inside, and the shallow domed heads would not get in the way of shovels too much. 

 

But would that have seemed a better way to the Litchurch Lane C&W DO draughtsmen in the early 1880s? Coach bolts might be considerably more expensive to manufacture or buy in, compared to making countersunk bolts and countersunk holes in the ironwork.

 

Anyway, speculation aside, it's what the drawing says:

 

 

and shows:

 

 

[Crops from a copy of drawing 550, Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D1879.]

 

It's also borne out by photos, as discussed in the second half of this post:

Perhaps friction was enough to stop the bolts turning much when tightening the nuts on the outside.

 

1 hour ago, Furness Wagon said:

Not all D299's had bottom doors those found on the S&DJR just had a plan floor. Also a lot of D299's were sold off to smaller companies before WW1: SECR; B&MR; PD&SWJR as well as numerous light railways. To name a few. Additionally the S&DJR wagons were split between the midland and LSWR in 1914. Also some of the S&DJR wagons had raised ends and others were fitted with tarp bars.

 

As far as I'm aware, all Midland D299s had bottom doors, as they were intended for mineral traffic as well as merchandise. The Highbridge-built S&DJR wagons ought not to be described as D299 but rather "similar to Midland drawing 550". I suspect they were intended for merchandise traffic, hence the lack of bottom doors. They differed from the Midland wagons in some additional details to the ones you mention, most notably having longer brake levers and a chunky wooden doorstop. They accounted for getting on for half the S&DJR's goods stock, or around 500 vehicles. There appears to be no surviving information on the fate of the Midland's share of the S&DJR goods stock; I suppose they will have been assimilated into D299 and have gone into the pool shortly after. The LSWR's share is better documented, surviving vehicles being given their own Southern Railway diagrams.

 

I would say "a few" rather than "a lot" - a drop in the ocean.

 

I believe the SECR wagons were on hire or loan - there does not seem to be any surviving information on the quantity involved and the only evidence I know of is a Ken Werrett drawing of one numbered C13 published in Model Railway News. One may have been purchased second hand: on p. 56 of G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 3 (OPC, 2000), there is a table of wagons purchased in 1912/3 from the Bute Co. (a major South Wales wagon building and finance company). In addition to the 200 wagons from that firm, it lists four from Hills Brothers and a single wagon, numbered A201, obtained from a Mr Cornforth. This wagon has dimensions that match D299. According to Bixley, p. 19, the number series with prefixes A, B, and C were for wagons bought second hand, on hire, or on loan - respectively, I infer.

 

There was a bit of a second-hand market in Midland rolling stock in the decade before the great war, with the M&SWJR, B&MR, and S&MR obtaining carriages of 1880s vintage and brake vans turning up in odd places, from the Isle of Wight to Fife. The PD&SWJR had 52 ex-Midland wagons, of which 30 were D299, 20 were D305 3-plank dropside wagons, and two were covered vans, specific type unknown; these were bought from the well-known wagon-building firm of R.Y. Pickering - what that firm's arrangement with the Midland was, is probably lost in paperwork bonfires [G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1985)]. 

 

I didn't know about wagons sold to the B&MR - @Furness Wagon, do you have any further details? Or of other minor lines obtaining second hand Midland wagons?

[brossard]

Really great discussion.  I had also heard that carriage bolts were used on wagons.  The drawing confirms what should have happened.  Perhaps carriage bolts were used later.  Still thinking about it.

 

BTW, talking to my partner in crime, the consensus is that the wagon will be done in MR livery.  He has an interest in North British so a pregroup wagon would be more plausible.

 

John

Edited June 8, 2020 by brossard

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, brossard said:

The drawing confirms what should have happened. 

 

... and the photograph confirms that it did. Why the incredulity?

[brossard]

It is just that, from I have read, the works drawing and reality didn't always coincide.  Not incredulous and I will go with that.

 

John

[K14]

 

9 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

I'd always thought that, rather than countersinking the bolt head, which, assuming it was hexagonal, would be an interesting exercise, they would have used coach bolts. The square section prevents the bolt turning once tightened up, no spanner being required on the inside, and the shallow domed heads would not get in the way of shovels too much.

  

 

Countersunk Cup-square coach bolts are still available, albeit in metric sizes:—

 

 

As to cost, the railway companies were buying them by the million, so the unit price would have been tiny.

[Compound2632]

But that's clearly not what was being used, since the bolts are specified to be 5/8" and the holes 11/16" - the latter would need to be 7/8" to clear the square section on those fancy bolts.

[brossard]

I was supposed to start layout wiring today but this wagon sucked me right in.

 

I've done a lot of what we talked about:

 

 

Main job was to do the scribed inserts.  I used sandpaper to get a grain effect.  Drop doors were drilled and then filled with plastic rod.  I also drilled the bolt holes on the sides and ends.  I remembered a trick that Barry Norman used to make rivets which was to make them with a tiny blob of PVA.  It does work, I used it on another wagon.  I used the same principle to fill the holes.  When dry it was sanded flush.

 

I have removed the material from the axleboxes as discussed.

 

There's a strut from the lever guide to the W iron but the pic is too dark to see that.

 

Next job is to look into the bottom door catches.

 

John

[Compound2632]

Very nicely done but I'm afraid I may have led you into a misunderstanding. It's only the ironwork on the bottom doors that is flush with the planking; the rest of the interior ironwork is quite prominent, especially the side knees. It is this ironwork into which the bolts are countersunk. I think I'd better show the photograph to which I only linked before. This should make all clear:

 

 

The interior you've made is typical of Great Western steel-framed wagons, where the side knees, providing the main structural support for the sides, are on the outside and there are no washer plates on the inside. As usual with the Great Western, they did things differently; this Midland wagon is rather more typical of wood-framed wagons, apart, perhaps, from the countersunk bolt heads. That's not all that surprising as the Midland's C&W Superintendent, T.G. Clayton, was chair of the RCH's wagon committee that drew up the RCH 1887 specification.

[Guest WM183]

Pre grouping wagons are a fascinating subject, and enough to make someone look at the LBSCR around 1920 or so... 

[brossard]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Very nicely done but I'm afraid I may have led you into a misunderstanding. It's only the ironwork on the bottom doors that is flush with the planking; the rest of the interior ironwork is quite prominent, especially the side knees. It is this ironwork into which the bolts are countersunk. I think I'd better show the photograph to which I only linked before. This should make all clear:

 

 

The interior you've made is typical of Great Western steel-framed wagons, where the side knees, providing the main structural support for the sides, are on the outside and there are no washer plates on the inside. As usual with the Great Western, they did things differently; this Midland wagon is rather more typical of wood-framed wagons, apart, perhaps, from the countersunk bolt heads. That's not all that surprising as the Midland's C&W Superintendent, T.G. Clayton, was chair of the RCH's wagon committee that drew up the RCH 1887 specification.

 

I'll have another look at my documentation.  It looks like a simple matter of applying some Evergreen strip.  I suppose I was misled by the caption that all bolts inside were countersunk and missed the knee thing.

 

Always good to have other eyes looking at the job, so easy to mess up.

 

John

 

John

Edited June 9, 2020 by brossard

[brossard]

29 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Pre grouping wagons are a fascinating subject, and enough to make someone look at the LBSCR around 1920 or so... 

 

Funny you should say that.  I was thinking it would be cool to make a collection of MR wagons.  I particularly like the 6 wheeled brake.

 

John

Edited June 9, 2020 by brossard

[brossard]

I'm trying to work out what was going on at the inside corners.  I can see an L bracket at the top corner but can't discern if there was strapping too.

 

John

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, brossard said:

I'm trying to work out what was going on at the inside corners.  I can see an L bracket at the top corner but can't discern if there was strapping too.

 

Have another look at the drawing. Specifically, the top left-hand corner, which shows an inside view of the side, and the bottom right, which shows an inside view of the end. As you say, there is an L-shaped bracket for the four bolts at the top of the corner plate; there are also four verticals for the remaining corner plate bolts, two on the inside of the sides and two on the insides of the ends. Those nearest the corner only just reach the top plank, because of the way the bolts are laid out.

 

@Spitfire2865 built a superb anatomically correct Gauge 3 model:

 

 

 

 

[brossard]

Ah thanks, I missed the drawing if you had posted it before.  I do like works drawings.

 

I've done the L brackets and I will add those strips.

 

John