Drawings for non-LSWR 4Sub/3Subs for scratch/kitbuilding?

[Lacathedrale]

Hi chaps,

 

I do apologise if this is the wrong area, but I'm coming to my wit's end. For wider context if anyone else is viewing this thread,  I'm looking for drawings of the multiple units run by the Southern Railway which aren't the  up until the introduction of the rebuilt, flat-front 4Subs, i.e. these:

 

(depicted in use as a departmental vehicle, not in revenue service)

 

I would like to either scratchbuild a couple of these (with or without new-build augmentation trailers) or reach out to Allan at Worsley to have them etched - but finding a drawing seems nigh impossible.

 

I understand there are innumerable variations of design so I would be happy with drawings of any of the 3Subs on standard 62' underframes that predate the 'new' 4Sub builds by Bulleid in 1941, but which are not the original 45' LSWR-stock.

 

I've reached out to the Southern Electric group with no reply, and all of their recommended purveyors of drawings (all bouncing back emails).

 

Any thoughts or help are appreciated - or redirection to another forum, person, location, etc.

 

 

[1466]

I recall that the Model  Railway Constructor  magazine published plans of 3 Subs with streamlined fronts .

It was a long  time ago and I didn’t keep a copy  so am sorry that this isn’t too helpful .

Perhaps there is an online index

?

[pete_mcfarlane]

Mike King does drawings of these units. You'll need to send him a SAE for the latest version of his list - there's an old copy on the SeMG website with his address:  http://www.semgonline.com/files/MikeKingDrawings.rtf

 

There was also a large book of Southern EMU drawings published about 15 years ago, but that's best avoided as the accuracy and reproduction quality is a bit iffy. 

 

[A Murphy]

There was a really great series of posts on RMW by a fella building a London suburban n gauge layout - I can't remember his name and I haven't seen anything recently. He posted a lot of stuff on building x2 3 carSub units, which I think were etched for him by Worsley Works? Does anyone out there remember this?

 

Alastair M

[jonhall]

Dosn't Roxey do this as a kit? https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/120/4emu2-sr-3sub-electric-unit/

 

jon

[wainwright1]

Hi Lacathedrale.

 

Not sure precisely which sets you are looking for.

I am not an expert but basically, there were new sets built early in SR days when they were extending the third rail network. It was then found too expensive to build all new sets, so a programme of building stock by cutting and shutting existing loco hauled coaches then took place. These three car SUBURBAN sets were run with two car trailer sets during the rush hour.

I have an old Mike King list for his drawings, but I do not think that he has added many new sheets in the last few years so it probably has most of them on it.

This list has the following:

1925 Eastern Section 3 SUB units 1496 - 1524. (New build steel sheeted).

1925 Western Section 3 SUB units 1285 - 1310. (New build steel sheeted).

1928 Ex-LSWR 3 SUB units 1658 - 1701

1934-40 Ex-LSWR 3 SUB units 1201 - 1284

1928 Ex-LBSCR 3 SUB units 1631 1657.

1925 Ex-SECR 3 SUB units 1401, 1525, 1601 etc. (Built from mostly ex-SER 6 wheeled coaches).

 

Bulleid 4 SUB units 4101 - 4110. (Queen of Sheba with sloped front).

Bulleid Post War All steel 4 SUB. (Flat fronted)

 

I think that these details are correct, the list only provides limited details.

N.B. The cut and shut sets were built from panelled coaches, so did not exhibit the smooth steel sheeted finish of the new build or later Bulleid sets, apart from the front sections, guards/luggage compartments et al.

 

I hope I go this right and that this is of interest. No doubt someone will point out any errors.

 

All the best

Ray

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

2 hours ago, A Murphy said:

There was a really great series of posts on RMW by a fella building a London suburban n gauge layout - I can't remember his name and I haven't seen anything recently. He posted a lot of stuff on building x2 3 carSub units, which I think were etched for him by Worsley Works? Does anyone out there remember this?

 

Alastair M

 

You're exactly right, they are the LSWR 3Subs - the very first kind and very distinctive. I looked at that thread when I was deciding whether it was possible to try this and was suitably impressed. Frankland is the layout name.

 

Unfortunately, a little too distinctive and none of the subsequent 3Sub units looked like them much at all. I've found that Mike King may have drawings, but I don't know how to get hold of him as his email address bounces from the Southern Electric group.

[wainwright1]

Hi Lacathedrale

 

So you want the  'Nutcrackers' ? I assume that these are the 1928 stock.

 

I cannot find Mike King's address at the moment. Try this for email:  mike.king12@btinternet.com

 

All the best

Ray

[Lacathedrale]

@wainwright1 - yes, ideally these that you mentioned:

 

1925 Ex-SECR 3 SUB units 1401, 1525, 1601 etc. (Built from mostly ex-SER 6 wheeled coaches).

 

I spoke to Tony at Roxey (thank you @jonhall) - but unfortunately his etchers aren't available to comment at this point. Hopefully it will work out but he has advised as hand-drawn artwork a new tool is a minimum of £100 and that the motor and trailer cars are on separate photo sheets - so could be a minimum of £200 plus the cost of the etch. Not the end of the world, I guess - but if the artwork is available it might be easier to get it via Worsley.

[wainwright1]

Hi Lacathedrale.

 

My last observation was obviously wrong as the Nutcrackers were LSWR built. However, I am not sure if they perpetuated the pointy fronts on the cut and shut sets which were re-built from LSWR coaches ?

 

Awaiting comments.

 

All the best

Ray

[wainwright1]

Hi Lacathedrale.

 

Pity you are doing 2mm. In 4mm Ajay models are doing a resin cast version of the Southern Section 3 car new build sets.

 

I am kit bashing 2 x 3 car sets for the ex-SE&CR cut and shut sets using Ratio Midland all third sides and Kirk 2 BIL front ends. Also contemplating having the roofs 3D printed. Will also make a trailer set, which for these sets was apparently made up from an ex SE&CR coach and an ex LSWR one !

 

All the best

Ray

[wainwright1]

Hi Lacathedrale.

 

This is I think one of the ex-LSWR cut and shut sets still at work in the 1950's at Crystal Palace High Level.

 

This is one of the ex-SEC&CR sets.

 

Somewhat different.

 

All the best

Ray

 

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

Hi Ray, yes - sorry, by 'nutcrackers' I assumed you meant the latter photograph in your pair - those are most definitely the ones that I want Interesting that the original LSWR 3Sub at CP in 1950 - my fractured notes suggest that the last ex-LSWR 3Sub was running in '49.

 

I've got hold of Mike King but he's unable to post any drawings. I've requested electronic drawings (since I'd otherwise have to scan them in anyway) so it's possible there may be movement. If you are getting the roofs 3D printed I would very much appreciate the STL so I can get them printed in 2mm too?

 

My overall goal is to have a few units, ideally a trio of 3Subs - one as-was, one with a Maunsell / LSWR trailer, and one with a Bulleid trailer. That might be getting ahead of myself a little bit, however!

 

[Lacathedrale]

@wainwright1 do you happen to know why the driver's window on some of the units was larger than the secondman's ?

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

@wainwright1 do you happen to know why the driver's window on some of the units was larger than the secondman's ?

The drivers window was fixed. The other one opened inwards so the driver could lean out and change the headcode stencils.

[Lacathedrale]

@Clive Mortimore why do both the windows look the same in the picture at the head of this thread, if one of them is hinged?

[Clive Mortimore]

5 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

@Clive Mortimore why do both the windows look the same in the picture at the head of this thread, if one of them is hinged?

Hi Willam

 

No Idea but S15 is a departmental unit so could/would have been modified.

[chris45lsw]

I don't think the SR would have built  any all new suburban electric units if it could have been avoided - it had always intended to use the bodies of redundant steam stock.  But without the buffer of 55 new build units (26 W. Section and 29 E. Section) in 1925  there would have been difficulty maintaining the existing services as batches of steam stock were withdrawn for conversion.

 

Anyway the departmental unit in the original photo is converted from two of the 1925 new build E. Section units.  These were original "3 SUBs" (incidentally the SR never used this term) 1496-1524.  When they were augmented to 4 SUB from Spring 1945 with Bulleid trailers they became 4 Subs 4326-4354.

 

I'm a bit confused as to whether you want this type or one of the assorted conversions of pre-grouping stock - or both!  If you'd have a LSWR conversion but as lengthened to 62ft by the SR Worsley Works has already done a version in 3mm and I'm sure he'd shrink it to 2mm if asked.

 

Chris KT

[Nearholmer]

I get a bit lost in this thread as to exactly which sets you want to model, but if it is the original LSWR Nutcrackers, a very good reference is "The Riverside Electric", South Western Circle Monograph No.5, which contains oodles of photos of the sets, plus very basic plan drawings showing lengths and layouts, and the thing that is really important: scale plan and sectional elevations of the cab, so that you can get the nose shape right.

 

I think there is a GA in one of the trade magazines, Engineering or the like, which I will have a hunt for when I get time, because that will show the panelling.

 

Incidentally, the second photo above from Wainright on 8 June shows the "LNWR" panelling of the 1925 SECR conversions that we discussed in another thread very well.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Guest]

Just come across this topic as I work in 4mm scale but I may be able to help a bit.

I recently did a model of a 1928 Southern Railway d.c. rebuild of LBSCR a.c. electric stock using etched brass for the sides and 3D printing for ends, roofs, floors, interiors, etc.   If the DWG files are of any use for re-scaling you would be welcome to a copy, strictly for your personal use only.

I am currently working on one of the 1925 Western section bull-nosed units and have the Mike King drawing for this unit. 

The history of the Southern's pre-war suburban fleets is fascinatingly complex/complete nightmare to get right (delete as applicable) and a copy of David Brown's "Southern Electric" Volume 1 is the best bet for escaping from the jungle alive.

Brian Golding's "Southern Electric Units - Drawings and Plans" is much maligned but the fact is that it is the only book with reasonably complete coverage of the subject.  It is, however, worth checking his drawings against photos and other sources.

[Lacathedrale]

@34017Ilfracombe many thanks, sir - the artwork from Mike is certainly exhaustive and seems to represent some LNWR-styled panelled coaches that the SER built - quite distinct from the Golding book's 'standard' coach SECR 4Sub design. I would be very grateful for your assistance whent he time comes - as it stands I'm sitting on my hands waiting for some motorised chassis to arrive from Japan before I proceed with my Bulleid 4Sub, before I order a bunch of SECR 4Subs - and I would hate to cause you work while it's a ways off!

[chris45lsw]

I think Goulding's rendition of the SE&CR bodied "3 Subs" is probably one of his two biggest bloomers (the second, in my view, is the 6 Pul trailer third).  All the SE&CR bodied suburban electric stock had the Wolverton (L&NWR) style panelling which was the SER/SE&CR norm until the 1909 Birdcage 3-sets.

 

Chris KT