Steam-hauled Post Office/Royal Mail trains

[IamDaniel]

Hi all,

 

With the Bachmann Post Office Red Mk1 Sorting Van due next week (https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35062/Bachmann-39-421b-oo-gauge-br-mk1-pos-post-office-sorting-van-post-office-red-with-nets) I'm tempted to create a steam-hauled postal train, however, I'm not sure of formations etc.

 

The POS seems to be in the same livery as the TPOs at the GCR, however, I see Bachmann also has an Era Five TPO https://railsofsheffield.com/products/35063/Bachmann-39-422-oo-gauge-br-mk1-pos-post-office-sorting-van-royal-mail-travelling-post-office which is in a different (later?) livery.

 

Were trains formed with carriages in both liveries, please? And I take it a TPO had to run with a POS?

 

Also, in terms of formations, would I be right in thinking two or three POS, plus a TPO and Maroon BG would look 'right'? Or would a GUV be required too?

 

I don't have an era/region in mind for the train - I have locos from the big four and BR, plus a few locos are as preserved, I'd like to run a train that looks vaguely correct.

 

Cheers!

 

[doilum]

Not sure about the mk1, but the Gresley TPO had offset gangways and could only be accessed from the similarly equipped sorting vans.

[Wheatley]

Have a look here for liveries: http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/tpo/nightmail3.html

 

In short, the one in your first link is in 1950s/60s livery, and the second one is in post-1990 livery. In BR steam days only the BR Mk1s were bright red, most other TPO vehicles were maroon. After 1970 they went blue/grey and then from 1986 back to red.

 

A TPO could be a single sorting carriage (POS - Post Office Sorting) at the head of a passenger or parcels train, or a whole train of 12 or more Post Office vehicles, or anything in between. As well as the sorting carriages there were stowage vans (POT - Post Office Tender) and some brake stowage vans (BPOT), mixed and matched to suit operating requirements. The only absolute requirement was that there must be at least one brake vehicle to accommodate the guard (which could be in the passenger coaches if there were any).  Beyond that the variations were legion, there was much shunting, combining and splitting of portions en route. I'm sure there are old threads on here going into much detail.

 

A typical 'short' formation was the Scottish bit of the Up Special TPO which in the 60s was two sorting vans, a stowage van and a brake stowage van, all LMS vehicles. It combined with other portions at Carlisle. The Highland TPO was a single POS at the head of a passenger train, an ex-HR carriage until about 1960 then a BR Mk1. If you want to do it with all Mk1 vehicles then the Huddersfield - Whitehaven TPO was a POS and 3 BGs by the 1970s. With a GUV you would have no through gangway communication but you could always tag it on as a 'bag tender' i.e. not sorted en route.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Wheatley

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, doilum said:

Not sure about the mk1, but the Gresley TPO had offset gangways and could only be accessed from the similarly equipped sorting vans.

No, the Mk1s had conventional Pullman gangways and all pre-nationalisation TPOs had special non-standard offset British standard gangways ( if any ).

If the Bachmann van has BR1 or BR2 bogies it should be OK for steam days - B4 bogies might have been fitted towards the end of steam haulage but don't assume that's true just 'cos that's what you see on preserved railways !

[The Johnster]

Don't forget that the TPO portion only sorted mail that had been presorted to it in the sorting offices' Outward Secondary Sortation (OSS), so there was alway a good baggage of other mail going the same way on the same train in stowage vehicles, which could also be formed as part of ordinary passenger or parcels trains, not classed as TPOs and part of the the very strict terms of the GPO/BR TPO contract with swinging penalties applied by one to the other in the event of delays.  Stowage could be in GUV or similar vehicles without gangways, but of course these could not be marshalled in the TPO or passenger gangwayed portions of the train.  Offset gangways were used on the LMS I believe for security purposes and police patrols would often park on bridges to observe the train's passing though.  

 

Bag tenders are not to be confused with stowage vehicles; a bag tender is part of the TPO portion and has sliding doors for loading or unloading, but it's function is merely to store TPO bags until they are sorted, and to store the sorted bags after the TPO has finished with them and labelled them to their destination and tied them; it is in the Royal Mail's livery and carries the crown's coat of arms.  It is a tender to supply bags in the same way that the loco's tender is to supply coal and water, and a ship's tender is to supply the ship if it is moored away from a berth.  The vehicles are classified as POS, for Post Office Stowage, but referred to in general as bag tenders by the TPO staff.  

 

Stowage of mail bags in 'ordinary' vehicles with parcels/mails accommodation is not part of the TPO operation; those bags have already been sorted, labelled, and tied to their destinations by the OSS at the despatching sorting office, and are mostly earlier collections.  Later collections are sorted to TPO bags to save time on OSS and enable it to make the 22.00 dispatch, or to travel on earlier TPOs to relieve the traffic later, depending on the destinations and when the TPO services departed from the local railhead.

 

TPO sorting coaches had post boxes let into the sides, into which mail could be inserted up until the moment that the train was moving and for a few seconds after in some cases but nobody encouraged this on platforms full of staff and handling equipment.  An extra penny stamp had to be affixed to the cover (envelope) for this service; the Postal Inspector on the TPO would open the box and hand the items out for sorting.

Edited June 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[73c]

The LNER Gresley's also used offset gangways.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, 73c said:

The LNER Gresley's also used offset gangways.

As did the GWR and SR ones, I believe.

[Steven B]

Some of the early Mk1 TPO vans had offset gangways to allow them to work with the Big-Four vans.

 

There's also some confusion about the 3 letter codes:

POS - Post Office Sorting - i.e. the van with racks where the post workers sorted the post

POT - Post Office Tender - the vans used to store bags of post before and after sorting.

BPOT - Brake version of POT.

 

Various diagrams of both types existed, with combinations of nets, set-down gear (or provision for but not fitted). Standard BGs could also be use a a tender vehicle.

 

Formations varied. Two of the easiest mid-late BR period ones to model are the Huddersfield-Workington and the one serving Holyhead. Both were made up of a single POS and two or three BG.

 

For a "typical" train I'd run a POT or BG either side of a POS. If you have more space then add a second POS.

 

Steven B.

 

[scottystitch]

The West Coast Postal, Aberdeen-Carstairs (where it joined with a portion from Glasgow) for Englandshire, is listed in the carriage working document for 1964 as:

 

POS POS POT POT BG.

 

It ran like that from Perth to Carstairs, arriving in Perth from Aberdeen at the head of a passenger rake of 5-7 (depending on the day of the week) coaches, which followed on a few minutes later, I believe as a stopping service to Glasgow Buchanan Street.

 

Best

Scott

[doilum]

The book on the subject is " The British Travelling Post Office" by Peter Johnson. Although an interesting read with a chapter on the complexity of operational diagrams, it doesn't directly answer the question at the top of the thread. That said, as I put the book down, I notice a photo on the back of the jacket with an ex LMS Pacific approaching a drop off point at the head of a long train of mk1 and ex LMS stock.

[IamDaniel]

Thanks all - most useful.

[Steamport Southport]

If you are after the other Mark One TPO coaches Southern Pride do them as pre printed kits.

 

Click on British Rail Mark 1

 

http://www.southernpridemodels.co.uk/

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

Depending upon where you live, and when access eases enough to allow travel, you might want to go to the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre, where they have a TPO, usually staffed by a couple of very knowledgeable volunteers who explain the whole process and let you have a go at sorting if you are so-minded. The display includes a lot of info about services, diagramming, and I think train compositions.