howardpidd Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) I'm being driven to despair my the refusal of virtually all the points on my layout work properly. Out of 14 just 3 are working as they should. Can anyone please suggest what I'm doing wrong? I am using DCC control and 00 scale Peco Code 75 electrofrog points powered by Seep motors. I have taken great care to prepare all the points as recommended: soldering wires between the stock and closure rails, cutting the wires connecting both the rails to the frog and connecting the single wire from the frog to Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrogs. I've also used insulated rail joiners to isolate frog rails where points face each other. According to everything I've read and all the You Tube videos I've watched the points should now work faultlessly, but they don't! In almost every case a loco will cross the point one way, but not when the point is switched the other way, stalling mid point. I've used a track tester and there's nothing wrong with the power supply to the rails which I've cleaned very thoroughly. I hope the schematic diagram below may help. The points are numbered 1 to 14. Those highlighted in green are OK, those in red aren't. I've tried to show by way of green arrows the direction individual ponts work OK and red arrows the direction in which points don't work (if that makes sense!). I'm clearly doing something wrong, any suggestions what will be very welcome. Edited June 9, 2020 by howardpidd Typos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Have you used insulated rail joiners on both the frog rails in all cases? You mentioned doing it where points face each other, but because the polarity of the frog changes you need them on both frog rails. (I'll caveat that with you need to do that if manually switching polarity - say with a point motor based switch - but I assume it is the same with the DCC80). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
csvt2004 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Is it at the frogs where your locos stall? Is it possible to connect the feed wires to the DCC80 the wrong way round? The ones that are working are obviously connected correctly, but have you tried swapping the feed wires on the others? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 Thanks for getting in touch. I've used insulated rail joiners as shown in the following picture. Is this what you meant? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 Thanks for the suggestion, locos do stall on the frogs, but usually only when going one way and not when switched the other way. I'll certainly try swapping the DCC 80 feed wires around though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Could be the SEEPs are not making contact properly when thrown. We had to do some maintenance on the SEEPs on the club layout after experiencing similar problems. John 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I would check 2 things that might cause issues both related to the moving blades that are relying on the contact with the rail when closed. Firstly ensure that the blade contact points are spotlessly clean (fibreglass pencil and hover up the fibres) and also that the rivets at the pivot end are making good contact with the rail - contact cleaner for this job. i have seen both of these cause difficulties for people 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 Thanks for the tips re the SEEPS (which I have found to be a bit unreliable in some cases) and cleaning the blades. I'll take another look at both. What I find particularly frustrating though is that many many years ago when I first had a layout I used very unsophisticated technology - DC, insulated frog points and coarser grade track and had none of the problems I'm currently experiencing, or maybe that's just rosy tinted retrospection! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I would want my blades to be electrically connected to the closure rails. I've done that with my turnout builds. Even if the hinge was connected (I think code 75 are but it's been a long time), it can wear over time and become intermittent. Best to solder some wire from blade to rail. Those blade contacts are the worst, terribly unreliable. IMO, do not rely on them. John 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 10, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) It may also be that the frog wire has become detached, although when that happened to mine, the loco would stall in both directions. I know my friend had a similar issue. I set up all of his points as per the OP and laid them for him. I left him to do the electrics. The loco would work fine when it was set straight, but when set the other way, the loco stalled. Upon investigation, we realised he had connected up all of the green wires from the auto-frogs together, and then all of the point frog wires together in their own bundle! Once he worked out that the frog wire from the point goes to the green wire on the auto-frog for each point separately, the points worked perfectly. In other words, the simplest of issues is usually the most likely cause. Edited June 10, 2020 by ianLMS 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Helps to decide on a convention for wire colour. For me, black and green for main track power, preferably keep the same colour on the same side. Red for crossing connection. I use blue and yellow for turnout control. John 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 For the sake of continuity, I use the same little ditty I use for loco wiring, for track bus wiring..... Red and Black to the track...... . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted June 10, 2020 Author Share Posted June 10, 2020 4 hours ago, ianLMS said: It may also be that the frog wire has become detached, although when that happened to mine, the loco would stall in both directions. I know my friend had a similar issue. I set up all of his points as per the OP and laid them for him. I left him to do the electrics. The loco would work fine when it was set straight, but when set the other way, the loco stalled. Upon investigation, we realised he had connected up all of the green wires from the auto-frogs together, and then all of the point frog wires together in their own bundle! Once he worked out that the frog wire from the point goes to the green wire on the auto-frog for each point separately, the points worked perfectly. In other words, the simplest of issues is usually the most likely cause. Your friend's experience sounds suspiciously like my own. I've tried all the tips suggested so far , plus a few ideas of my own, but with zero results. I had already colour coded all my wiring, but before I totally lose my mind and rip up all the points in frustration I will try systematically going through all the wiring and see if that makes a difference and if necessary rewire it totally. I could understand one or two points playing up, but 11 out of 14 is just ridiculous! It seems most likely that I must have something fundamentally wrong with the wiring, If not then I'm absolutely stumped. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I'll report back on progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Always remember the wise words of Holmes: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartynJPearson Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Before you go pulling up track, just a thought - do you have the same problem with just one loco or others as well? Some locos can be sensitive to points that are not completely level. Other thoughts, if you have a multimeter, you could check that there is continuity where there is supposed to be and that there is an appropriate and relatively consistent voltage across the track at all points. There could be enough for your track tester to appear OK but not enough to power a loco. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mick Bonwick Posted June 10, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 10, 2020 I'm not familiar with a Gaugemaster DCC80, but I do use a Tam Valley Depot FrogJuicer, which has an LED to indicate that a change has taken place in the 'polarity' of the current sent to the frog. Have you been able to check with your non-working points that the current to the frog has actually been changed when the point setting has changed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted June 10, 2020 Author Share Posted June 10, 2020 There doesn't seem to be any way to check if the polarity has actually been changed by the DCC80, or indeed if it is working at all. I've long suspected frog polarity might be a cause of the problem. But how can I tell? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 A very useful tool is a multi meter to check resistance and volts. DCC is ACV and should be about 15V. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc60015 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 I have used DCC80s for some time and have found that some locos do not "trip" the unit. Bridging the insulated fishplate with a screwdriver would activate it, I have replaced them with GM 500D relays and all is ok. hope this helps. malc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 On 09/06/2020 at 17:20, howardpidd said: Thanks for getting in touch. I've used insulated rail joiners as shown in the following picture. Is this what you meant? You need insulating fishplates like that on all your points, not just the ones that face each other in a crossover. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardpidd Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 3 hours ago, F-UnitMad said: You need insulating fishplates like that on all your points, not just the ones that face each other in a crossover. Thanks, in fact that's what I have done. So now to try and get to the bottom of the problem I'm replacing the layout wiring with the aim of simplifying it and hopefully eliminating the problems. Sounds drastic but I'm desperate! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Clitsome Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I sympathise with you. One thing I've found useful when searching for problems is to go one step at a time and check all works ok before moving onto the next. Since you've already, or are going to disconnect, all your wiring just go one point at a time and check for problems. That way you'll know that when a fault occurs it's the last thing you did that caused the problem. Hope that helps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2020 Might be worth a few minutes of your time quickly drawing where your power feeds are on the layout and how the points and frogs are connected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ELTEL Posted June 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 17, 2020 D I have similar problems to Howard All the track joints that are connected to vee part of the point use insulated rail joints correctly all electrical connections are correct. I use a 08 shunter for testing and all will run fine in test time and time again. Then the next time I throw the points the loco will fail crossing the frog used a second 08 shunter to check it was not a loco fault) So the fault has to be the accessory switches on the Gaugemaster/ Seep PM4 Would a frog juicer solve my problem Is there any product such as electrical switch cleaner that anyone can recommend ? I only used the PM4 point motors as I had them in stock at the start of lockdown (all are brand new) Gist for subscribing to BRM many years ago. Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 22, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2020 I was told a few years back that the SEEP aren't super reliable so best not to trust their connections for powering the frog. I use the DCC 80's and have 33 of them on the layout, and so far, none have failed me. You could also use the Peco accessory switch or micro-switch which i used when I was DC. They will still change the power to the frog like the SEEP by using the positive throw action rather than being prompted by a short. Failing that, connect the pin from the seep to a rod which activates an On-On switch. I wonder if the OP's issue is no power to the point all the time so when the point setting is change, the route/frog has not power to that section of the track. As I mentioned, a diagram showing where the power to the track is and how the power to the frogs is being changed might help identify the issue (unless it has been resolved) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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