What's wrong with my points?

[howardpidd]

I'm being driven to despair my the refusal of virtually all the points on my layout work properly. Out of 14 just 3 are working as they should. Can anyone please suggest what I'm doing wrong?

 

I am using DCC control and  00 scale Peco Code 75  electrofrog points powered by Seep motors. I have taken great care to prepare all the points as recommended: soldering wires between the stock and closure rails, cutting the wires connecting both the rails to the frog and connecting the single wire from the frog to  Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrogs. I've also used insulated rail joiners to isolate frog rails where points face each other. According to everything I've read and all the You Tube videos I've watched the points should now work faultlessly, but they don't!

 

In almost every case a loco will cross the point one way, but not when the point is switched the other way, stalling mid point. I've used a track tester and there's nothing wrong with the power supply to the rails which I've cleaned very thoroughly.

 

I hope the schematic diagram below may help. The points are numbered 1 to 14. Those highlighted in green are OK, those in red aren't. I've tried to show by way of green arrows the direction individual ponts work OK and red arrows the direction in which points don't work (if that makes sense!). 

 

I'm clearly doing something wrong, any suggestions what will be very welcome.

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by howardpidd
Typos

[MartynJPearson]

Have you used insulated rail joiners on both the frog rails in all cases? You mentioned doing it where points face each other, but because the polarity of the frog changes you need them on both frog rails. (I'll caveat that with you need to do that if manually switching polarity - say with a point motor based switch - but I assume it is the same with the DCC80).

 

 

[csvt2004]

Is it at the frogs where your locos stall? Is it possible to connect the feed wires to the DCC80 the wrong way round? The ones that are working are obviously connected correctly, but have you tried swapping the feed wires on the others?

[howardpidd]

Thanks for getting  in touch.  I've used insulated rail joiners as shown in the following picture. Is this what you meant?

[howardpidd]

Thanks for the suggestion,  locos do stall on the frogs, but usually only when going one way and not when switched the other  way.  I'll certainly try swapping the DCC 80 feed wires around though.

[brossard]

Could be the SEEPs are not making contact properly when thrown.  We had to do some maintenance on the SEEPs on the club layout after experiencing similar problems.

 

John

[WIMorrison]

I would check 2 things that might cause issues both related to the moving blades that are relying on the contact with the rail when closed. Firstly ensure that the blade contact points are spotlessly clean (fibreglass pencil and hover up the fibres) and also that the rivets at the pivot end are making good contact with the rail - contact cleaner for this job.

 

i have seen both of these cause difficulties for people

[howardpidd]

Thanks for the tips re the SEEPS (which I have found to be a bit unreliable in some cases) and cleaning the blades.  I'll take another look at both. What I find particularly frustrating though is that many many years ago when I first had a layout  I used very unsophisticated technology - DC, insulated frog points and  coarser grade track and had none of the problems  I'm currently experiencing, or maybe that's just rosy tinted retrospection!

[brossard]

I would want my blades to be electrically connected to the closure rails.  I've done that with my turnout builds.  Even if the hinge was connected (I think code 75 are but it's been a long time), it can wear over time and become intermittent.  Best to solder some wire from blade to rail.

 

Those blade contacts are the worst, terribly unreliable.  IMO, do not rely on them.

 

John

[ianLMS]

It may also be that the frog wire has become detached, although when that happened to mine, the loco would stall in both directions.

 

I know my friend had a similar issue. I set up all of his points as per the OP and laid them for him. I left him to do the electrics. The loco would work fine when it was set straight, but when set the other way, the loco stalled. Upon investigation, we realised he had connected up all of the green wires from the auto-frogs together, and then all of the point frog wires together in their own bundle! Once he worked out that the frog wire from the point goes to the green wire on the auto-frog for each point separately, the points worked perfectly. In other words, the simplest of issues is usually the most likely cause. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by ianLMS

[brossard]

Helps to decide on a convention for wire colour.  For me, black and green for main track power, preferably keep the same colour on the same side.  Red for crossing connection.  I use blue and yellow for turnout control.

 

John

[Ron Ron Ron]

For the sake of continuity, I use the same little ditty I use for loco wiring, for track bus wiring.....

Red and Black to the track......

 

 

.

[howardpidd]

4 hours ago, ianLMS said:

It may also be that the frog wire has become detached, although when that happened to mine, the loco would stall in both directions.

 

I know my friend had a similar issue. I set up all of his points as per the OP and laid them for him. I left him to do the electrics. The loco would work fine when it was set straight, but when set the other way, the loco stalled. Upon investigation, we realised he had connected up all of the green wires from the auto-frogs together, and then all of the point frog wires together in their own bundle! Once he worked out that the frog wire from the point goes to the green wire on the auto-frog for each point separately, the points worked perfectly. In other words, the simplest of issues is usually the most likely cause. 

Your friend's experience sounds suspiciously like my own.  I've tried all the tips suggested so far , plus a few ideas of my own, but with zero results. I had already colour coded all my wiring, but before I totally lose my mind and rip up all the points in frustration I will try systematically going through all the wiring and see if that makes a difference and if necessary rewire it totally. I could understand one or two points playing up, but 11 out of 14 is just ridiculous!  It seems most likely that I must have something fundamentally wrong with the wiring,  If not then I'm absolutely stumped. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I'll report back on progress.

[brossard]

Always remember the wise words of Holmes:  "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

John

[MartynJPearson]

Before you go pulling up track, just a thought - do you have the same problem with just one loco or others as well? Some locos can be sensitive to points that are not completely level.

 

Other thoughts, if you have a multimeter, you could check that there is continuity where there is supposed to be and that there is an appropriate and relatively consistent voltage across the track at all points. There could be enough for your track tester to appear OK but not enough to power a loco. 

[Mick Bonwick]

I'm not familiar with a Gaugemaster DCC80, but I do use a Tam Valley Depot FrogJuicer, which has an LED to indicate that a change has taken place in the 'polarity' of the current sent to the frog. Have you been able to check with your non-working points that the current to the frog has actually been changed when the point setting has changed?

[howardpidd]

There doesn't seem to be any way to check if the polarity has actually been changed by the DCC80, or indeed if it is working at all. I've long suspected frog polarity might be a cause of the problem. But how can I tell?

[brossard]

A very useful tool is a multi meter to check resistance and volts.  DCC is ACV and should be about 15V.

 

John

[malc60015]

I have used DCC80s for some time and have found that some locos do not "trip"  the unit.

Bridging the insulated fishplate with a screwdriver would activate it, I have replaced them with GM 500D relays and all is ok.

hope this helps.

malc

[F-UnitMad]

On 09/06/2020 at 17:20, howardpidd said:

Thanks for getting  in touch.  I've used insulated rail joiners as shown in the following picture. Is this what you meant?

You need insulating fishplates like that on all your points, not just the ones that face each other in a crossover. 

[howardpidd]

3 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

You need insulating fishplates like that on all your points, not just the ones that face each other in a crossover. 

Thanks, in fact that's what I have done.

 

So now to try and get to the bottom of the problem I'm replacing the layout wiring with the aim of simplifying it and hopefully eliminating the problems. Sounds drastic but I'm desperate!

[John Clitsome]

I sympathise with you.

One thing I've found useful when searching for problems is to go one step at a time and check all works ok before moving onto the next.

Since you've already, or are going to disconnect, all your wiring just go one point at a time and check for problems. That way you'll know that when a fault occurs it's the last thing you did that caused the problem. Hope that helps.

[ianLMS]

Might be worth a few minutes of your time quickly drawing where your power feeds are on the layout and how the points and frogs are connected. 

[ELTEL]

D

 

I have similar problems to Howard

 

All the track joints that are connected to vee  part of the point use insulated rail joints correctly all electrical connections are correct.

 

I use a 08 shunter for testing and all will run fine in test time and time again.

 

Then the next time I throw the points the loco will fail crossing the frog  used a second 08 shunter to check it was not a loco fault) 
 

So the fault has to be the accessory switches on the Gaugemaster/ Seep PM4 
 

Would a frog juicer solve my problem 

 

Is there any product such as electrical switch cleaner that anyone can recommend ?

 

I only used the PM4 point motors  as I had them in stock at the start of lockdown (all are brand new) Gist for subscribing to BRM many years ago.

 

Terry 

 

 

[ianLMS]

I was told a few years back that the SEEP aren't super reliable so best not to trust their connections for powering the frog. I use the DCC 80's and have 33 of them on the layout, and so far, none have failed me. 

 

You could also use the Peco accessory switch or micro-switch which i used when I was DC. They will still change the power to the frog like the SEEP by using the positive throw action rather than being prompted by a short.

 

Failing that, connect the pin from the seep to a rod which activates an On-On switch. 

 

I wonder if the OP's issue is no power to the point all the time so when the point setting is change, the route/frog has not power to that section  of the track. As I mentioned, a diagram showing where the power to the track is and how the power to the frogs is being changed might help identify the issue (unless it has been resolved)