What's wrong with my points?

[boxbrownie]

Looking at the photograph of that point it looks like it’s been weathered and there is quite a bit of paint/dirt on the rails at the contact end, could be the blades aren’t making a good connection, another thing to check is the back to back in your Locos, just in case.

[howardpidd]

On 11/06/2020 at 15:47, ianLMS said:

Might be worth a few minutes of your time quickly drawing where your power feeds are on the layout and how the points and frogs are connected. 

 I really do appreciate all the helpful suggestions everyone has made, but regrettably I'm no further forward. I've spent quite a bit of time testing all my  droppers to ensure  that power is reaching every part of my track and I've added a number to be absolutely sure. The attached plan shows where all the track feeds are. Maybe a bit of overkill, but I didn't want to leave anything to chance.

 

Sadly nothing has improved. As before most of the points will only work properly one way (shown by the green arrows on the plan, the red arrows show the direction in which locos stall on the points). 

 

The problem seems to be that only one part of the frog is getting power and so the loco stalls in exactly the same place on virtually every point when set one way but not the other. The arrows on the following picture show the offending parts of the point I'm talking about. I've used my voltage tester to confirm this is the case.

 

 

 

I use these Gaugemaster DCC80 autofrogs on all 14 of my points:

 

The orange and white wires are soldered to the heel of each point (these are colour coded to correspond to the power leads to the track) and the blue wire is attached to the wire from the frog of the Peco electofrog point.

 

As an experiment I reversed the orange and white wires on one offending point and discovered that whereas before the point would only allow the loco to cross one way, but not the other, the situation was now reversed.  So for example,  when the point when is set straight it allowed the loco to move smoothly across, but the loco stalled when the point was changed to the other direction. Reversing the wires on the autofrog reversed the problem. Now the loco stalls going straight across, but moves unhindered when turning off. I'm sure this is significant, but I haven't any idea wheat to do about it!

 

Having spent a ridiculous amount of time on this problem and not being able to enjoy using my layout at all I'd appreciate any useful suggestions as to where I go from here.

[WIMorrison]

You absolutely certain on which links you cut on the bottom of the turnouts? It seems to me that the power is not going from the frog to the rails that you point to.

[howardpidd]

This shows where I cut the wires on the points. I agree that power doesn't seem to be reaching the frogs. Assuming  I cut the right wires is there any other explanation?

 

k

[smokebox]

48 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

The orange and white wires are soldered to the heel of each point (these are colour coded to correspond to the power leads to the track) and the blue wire is attached to the wire from the frog of the Peco electofrog point.

 

Which end of the point are you calling the heel?

[howardpidd]

14 minutes ago, smokebox said:

 

Which end of the point are you calling the heel?

[Philou]

Now if that was me, I would say that by cutting the flat connectors, the section between the blade and the frog is no longer receiving power due to the insulated joiners at the other end (there would be a short if there weren't any, of course). As I haven't used electrofrogs (but will be soon), so I may well be wrong - but that is my visual analysis of the underside of the point.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[WIMorrison]

10 minutes ago, howardpidd said:

 That is the Toe to me - if you look a foot sideways and a turnout sideways then you will see the similarity and why the sharp end is the toe and the divergent end is the heel

 

You would appear to have cut the power that would feed the offending rails as they are not getting the power from the blades now and you haven't (yet) connected them to the frog - that would be my view

 

[smokebox]

It's the toe to me too, hence why I asked.

[Philou]

Can I just mention too having seen the photo of the toe, it does seem that the blade is not closing tightly against the rail. Perhaps a bit of ballast or other foreign object is stuck behind the blade - been there, done that! You may want to have a close look too at how the under-blade contact is touching the (stock?) rail. It can sometimes be a bit hit and miss.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, smokebox said:

It's the toe to me too, hence why I asked.

Correct, that is the toe end.....seems the wrong link might have been cut.

[howardpidd]

I had assumed that the 'thin' end of the point equated to the heel of a foot and the other end where it the rails diverge was the 'thick' or toe end of a foot! But I'm quite happy to be corrected. So does that mean that the DC80 leads should be attached to the other 'frog' end of the point, or whatever we call it?

[smokebox]

You have the wires connected to the correct end of the point.  This provides a DCC power feed to the dcc80.  They could, alternatively, be connected to the DCC bus.

[howardpidd]

15 minutes ago, smokebox said:

You have the wires connected to the correct end of the point.  This provides a DCC power feed to the dcc80.  They could, alternatively, be connected to the DCC bus.

 

It's reassuring that I've connected the DCC80 correctly. I'm pretty sure that I did cut the correct wires on the underside of the points and soldered wires between the stock and closure rails, both as recommended by Peco. But I really don't seem to be getting any closer to a solution to enable the points to work correctly.

[brossard]

Watching with alternating interest and dismay.  No idea how the DCC80 works, I just use a turnout motor with frog polarity contacts.

 

Perhaps this will be of use:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

 

third sketch is Peco Electrofrog.  May be of some use.

 

Oh, one other thing, if you don't have a multimeter, get one.  This is essential for the layout builder.

 

John

[smokebox]

Add a couple of power feeds where shown to make sure the fixed and moving rails are powered.  You may need to reverse these two additional feeds to get the "polarity" correct.

[howardpidd]

9 minutes ago, smokebox said:

Add a couple of power feeds where shown to make sure the fixed and moving rails are powered.  You may need to reverse these two additional feeds to get the "polarity" correct.

 

 

Many thanks I'll try that. 

[JDW]

Just a suggestion in case it helps you locate the problem: It looks to me like the above suggestion might cure it, but before soldering anything I'd try getting something like a paperclip or short piece of stiff wire, bend it into a U and use it to bridge the narrow gap between the straight and curved rail (or blade) at each side and then try running stock through. I've used it as a cheat in my fiddle yard to power tracks that were previously dead without having to get the soldering iron out. 

[ianLMS]

Definately looks like the new connecting wires are broken. Fingers crossed replacing them should sort it. You may also want to try connecting the DCC80 orange and white power wires direct to the power bus rather than the point. That way they are not dependent on the track feed prior to the toe.

Edited June 23, 2020 by ianLMS

[malc60015]

If you have your DCC80s wired up and track live and you bridge the insulated fishplate on the vee to the outlet track (first to straight ahead then the reverse track ) can you hear the relay click.

If you can try running a loco through it.

As I said previously I HAVE HAD THIS PROBLEM.

cheers Malc

[tomparryharry]

On 23/06/2020 at 17:38, Philou said:

Can I just mention too having seen the photo of the toe, it does seem that the blade is not closing tightly against the rail. Perhaps a bit of ballast or other foreign object is stuck behind the blade - been there, done that! You may want to have a close look too at how the under-blade contact is touching the (stock?) rail. It can sometimes be a bit hit and miss.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

As Phillip has said, it appears the toe in the photo has not closed up against the stock rail.  If you have ensured that the divergence is clear of debris, then I sometimes gently bend out the very tip of the toe. I use 2 sets of fine pliers to undertake this. One set is the vice set, which holds the toe in place, and the second set which manipulates the toe out very, very slightly. It's only a millimetre at best, but just enough to retain contact. 

[DCB]

I have a test loco with pick up on only one axle for accurately identifying where track faults lie.   Motorised for dynamic testing or with a light for static these beasties can be invaluable.    Looking at the point I would bin it.   I use all sorts of tat bought for a quid or so from the scrap box in my local model shop but the blades on that one look beyond repair and the bridge wiring looks for all the world like there is a dry joint.  The Peco points are absolutely fine out of the box as long as you don't use stupidly narrow to gauge wide tread wheels. If you do the sparks are impressive on DC and the whole thing stops on DCC.  My single axle pick up loco trundles happily over 30 year old electrofrog points at a snails pace on DC.   They don't like lots of Amps, about 1 Amp is as much as they can tolerate without damage.  A 1 amp polyfuse between each power area and the control unit takes a lot of strain off the point and point motor contacts especially when you repeatedly short it all out.   

I suspect the point blades are not making contact at either end, neither pivot nor stretcher bar. If the frog switch changes the polarity one way and the point blades the other the contact between blade and adjacent rails swiftly fails.   The pivot is unprototypical, full size points don't have them, the blades just bend.  As did 40 year old Grafar Liveway points. I would bond the blades with really flexible wires or better still connect them direct to the bus and see if that cures it.  Otherwise lay them as they are, unmodified and just add overload protection.  Powercabs etc protect themselves not your track.

[brossard]

I'm always preaching DCC best practices and the best way to configure a Peco turnout for DCC is this:

 

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

 

The third sketch shows a Peco turnout.

 

The hinge at the blades does look awful and is an electrical weak spot, being prone to wear out.  For my 7mm turnouts I soldered rail joiners between the blades and closure rails.  Tortoise motors fitted with 0.032" steel wire should have the muscle to move 00 turnouts (I repaired a turnout in this way many years ago and had no trouble) (I found 0.055" wire works better for 7mm and my testing has shown excellent performance).

 

John

Edited June 28, 2020 by brossard

[howardpidd]

Although none of my points were bought second hand I did reuse some of them from a former layout following a house move.  From the comments above it's quite likely they suffered as a result, although no damage was apparent. But subsequent problems have now lead me to conclude that reusing points isn't necessarily a good idea!

 

So whilst really appreciating all the advise I've been given here unfortunately nothing really worked, so reluctantly I have decided enough is enough and I am replacing all the faulty points with new ones. I have decided to stick with Peco code 75 electrofrog points mainly because the track already laid is Peco code 75 and I don't know of any other viable alternatives. 

 

All I'm hoping for is trouble free running with the minimum of complications. Reliabilty and simplicity are my top priority so I can at long last get back to enjoying my railway modelling once again instead of the frustration and inactivity I have recently endured. Unfortunately it looks like I'm in for a bit of a wait before I'll be able to achieve that because everyone appears to be out of stock of the particular points I'm after at the moment due no doubt to the virus interrupting production.  So my pre-order is now with Hattons awaiting developments. 

[brossard]

I would agree that reusing turnouts is not advisable.  Subtle damage can occur during lifting.

 

When you get your new turnouts I hope you configure them to the link I posted above.

 

John