Jump to content
 

What's wrong with my points?


howardpidd
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold

Hold on Howard,

 

Unless you've debugged the problem with your current turnouts you may get the exact same thing with a set of new ones.

 

Did you clean between the blade and the stock rail (outside rail) so that they make good electrical contact? (Ideally, use a fibreglass pencil and hoover up afterwards because the filaments that break off are both irritants if you touch them and insulating, which would defeat the excercise.)

 

Did you do what Malc suggested - bridging across the insulating joiners? If so, what happened?

 

If not, please try this: Power up the layout, make sure nothing is running, get a bit of wire and starting with one of the working turnouts:

Bridge across one of the insulating joiners to the frog. Then do the same for the other joiner. When you change from bridging the joiner in the straight rail to bridging the joiner in the curved rail, you should hear the DCC80 relay click. When you go back to the straight rail it should click again. Do that a few times, making sure you can hear the click each time.

 

Then do the same on one of the non-working turnouts: Do you hear clicks on both rails, the same as the working one? (Remember to try a few times each way.)

 

Edited by Harlequin
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Are your points the ones that have a wire to the frog from the factory?

 

7F69C227-0146-4BCE-9A7E-27A28E949F3F.jpeg.4482b963d07fab8ba70e5b0b52afeca5.jpeg

 

If so I’ve found that this wire is quite delicate and if manipulated a little too much breaks away easily

 

Edited by chuffinghell
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I would suggest getting hold of a 24volt 21watt vehicle light bulb (24 volt seems to be a lorry lamp) and soldering two wires to the bulb contacts.

 

Use the bulb between the frog and the either outer rail, the lamp should light up. Then connect to the frog and the other outer rail, you should hear the relay of the DCC80 click over as you connect to the opposite outer rail and again the lamp should light. You don't even need to change the point for this test, it's the frog drawing current that causes the flip of the relay.

 

Don't worry about any of the posts here about cuts on the underside of the points (your cuts are in the correct place), or about contact at the switch blades, if the DCC80 is not functioning in the first place. 

 

Andi

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
9 minutes ago, chuffinghell said:

Are your points the ones that have a wire to the frog from the factory?

 

7F69C227-0146-4BCE-9A7E-27A28E949F3F.jpeg.4482b963d07fab8ba70e5b0b52afeca5.jpeg

 

If so I’ve found that this wire is quite delicate and if manipulated a little too much breaks away easily

 

If the frog wire was broken the loco would stall in both routes.

 

Andi

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Howard,

I think that the over-centre spring has been removed from the turnout in the photos above.

Is that right? Have you done that on all the turnouts?

Do the point motors have their own over-centre springing to hold the blades against the stock rail and If so are you sure it’s working properly?
 

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been experiencing a similar problem with an electrofrog point on my DC layout - trains would go one way but not the other. Spent hours over my 3 months of furlough trying to cure it, checking the electrics and connections - I don't use anything extra in  terms of wiring, no feed to the frog etc.

 

Then on Tuesday I finally found the problem - the switch blade was bent slightly toward the outer rail which was causing a 'short' with the loco wheel touching both at the same time - straightened the switch blade and Hey Presto, smooth running by all locos in each direction.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Just a quick update on how I finally resolved the issue of my non-working points. Well despite all the help and advice I was kindly offered here nothing actually did the trick and the points stubbornly refused to function as they should. Fearing for my sanity I therefore resolved to cut my losses and replace them all. Finding sufficient Peco Code 75 electrofrog points  of the correct type during the current pandemic proved to be quite a challenge, but eventually I tracked down sufficient from a variety of sources. Extracting the old points and inserting the new ones without destroying the rest of the track in the process was a rather trying experience, but finally it's done and the good news is that everything finally works - for the first time I'm actually able to use my layout as intended.  Having originally modified the points as per advice by soldering wires between the stock and closure rails, cutting the wires connecting both the rails to the frog and  then connecting the single wire from the frog to  Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrogs, I decided this time to do none of those things and simply install the new points unmodified and without the DCC80s. Lo and behold they work just fine!

  • Like 2
  • Friendly/supportive 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to hear it Howard.

 

My layout has about 50 pts and non have been modified and I've never had any serious problems. Just occassionally the tip of the blades requires a tweak to secure contact and I ensure the spring mechanism is keeping the 'switch' tight.

 

Must be quite a relief for you after all the trauma!!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I have seldom read so much conflicting and irrelevant advice.

The crucial statement from the Op is this.

Quote

As an experiment I reversed the orange and white wires on one offending point and discovered that whereas before the point would only allow the loco to cross one way, but not the other, the situation was now reversed. 

Which crearl establishes that the rails are connected correctly but the DCC80 frog juicer is not working.

So the answer is to get one point and one frog juicer and test it out. One post did ask that this should be tried and the relay click listened to but I did not see any answer. Get one working then you will be able to fix the others.

Considering that you have bought a whole load of these things from Gaugemaster, enlist their help.

 

Ps missed your 'I've fixed it', post, I would ask Gaugemaster for your money back!

Edited by Grovenor
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, John Clitsome said:

Glad to hear it Howard.

 

My layout has about 50 pts and non have been modified and I've never had any serious problems. Just occassionally the tip of the blades requires a tweak to secure contact and I ensure the spring mechanism is keeping the 'switch' tight.

 

Must be quite a relief for you after all the trauma!!

If this whole episode has taught me one thing it's to keep things simple. At the end of the day I came into this hobby because I  enjoy running trains and now I'm able to do so. 

 

The increasingly complex, and expensive,  technology today is fine and dandy if it serves that purpose, but in my experience it can easily become an end in itself and when it goes wrong it really detracts from the pleasure of modelling. 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
14 hours ago, John Clitsome said:

Glad to hear it Howard.

 

My layout has about 50 pts and non have been modified and I've never had any serious problems. Just occassionally the tip of the blades requires a tweak to secure contact and I ensure the spring mechanism is keeping the 'switch' tight.

 

Must be quite a relief for you after all the trauma!!

Yet, if you search RMweb, you will find lots of posts asking - why do trains stall on points?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have just acquired a number of new Peco Electrofrog Code 75 points for use on my layout to be constructed and to be operated on DCC.

 

I note that the Peco instructions on current points suggest cutting the links from frog to switch rail for use on DCC. There is no longer a mention of fitting a jumper from switch rail to stock rail (if there ever was)  although there is a gap in the plastic moulding enabling one to do so relatively easily. The Peco instructions contemplate using the Peco motor and auxiliary switch to switch frog polarity.

 

I am using Cobalts and propose to use them to switch frog polarity.

 

My query is what is the point in cutting the connection between switch rails and frog? The Cobalt switching merely strengthens the connection, so that you rely on that for switching, rather than stock rail/blade contact, but it is just supportive. You can cut the switch blade/frog link, as suggested, and add the stock rail to switch rail link, but I can't see how it helps, given that the link is beyond the vulnerable hinge in the stock rails (as it has to be if the switch rails is to move).

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Derekl said:

I have just acquired a number of new Peco Electrofrog Code 75 points for use on my layout to be constructed and to be operated on DCC.

 

I note that the Peco instructions on current points suggest cutting the links from frog to switch rail for use on DCC. There is no longer a mention of fitting a jumper from switch rail to stock rail (if there ever was)  although there is a gap in the plastic moulding enabling one to do so relatively easily. The Peco instructions contemplate using the Peco motor and auxiliary switch to switch frog polarity.

 

I am using Cobalts and propose to use them to switch frog polarity.

 

My query is what is the point in cutting the connection between switch rails and frog? The Cobalt switching merely strengthens the connection, so that you rely on that for switching, rather than stock rail/blade contact, but it is just supportive. You can cut the switch blade/frog link, as suggested, and add the stock rail to switch rail link, but I can't see how it helps, given that the link is beyond the vulnerable hinge in the stock rails (as it has to be if the switch rails is to move).

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

If the timing of your two switches (the blade connection and the switch in your turnout motor) is out of sync, then you get a short circuit - that short blasts your switch gear with the full current of your DCC system, probably shortening the switch contacts life (because they're not very good at taking/breaking contact under full current flow - their usual behaviour is to make a contact with zero current flow, and then pass current whilst static to a loco running over the crossing).   

To work reliably, one of the two switches must operate whilst the other is in the "mid position neutral".   This probably works for the combination you have, but isn't guaranteed to work  -  the Cobalt might be ahead, putting tension into the spring operating wire before the tie bar jumps over from the original stock rail. 

 

A secondary issue is whether the back of any metal wheels can touch the open blade.  If it does, then you have another short circuit path.   If back-to-backs are correct, and turnout is to specification, this shouldn't happen.  But there isn't a massive amount of clearance, so small errors and contact can happen.  

 

The recommended approach,  which is also best-practise for DC running,  solves both issues.  

 

- Nigel

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Nigel - thank you - those were more or less the thoughts I had - I presumed, though, that the Cobalt slow action would probably not switch before the point blades had moved (I suppose the "probably" says it all). The problem with the path between stock rail and blade is there for DC operation as well, but presumably a short is likely to be a lot less problematic with DC.

 

I am about to start the track-laying - I will follow advice and follow best practice.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately a short in DCC is no different to a short in DC - they both result in the layout stopping.

 

i assume you know to remove the over-centre springs in Peco turnouts before you lay them when using Cobalt and similar motors? If you don’t you are very likely to get a short, but even worse than that you lose the slow motion change if you leave the spring in place :(

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

i assume you know to remove the over-centre springs in Peco turnouts before you lay them when using Cobalt and similar motors? If you don’t you are very likely to get a short, but even worse than that you lose the slow motion change if you leave the spring in place :(

 

 

 

Yes, thank you, I had picked up the need to remove the over centre springs - in fact I used to do so on a layout I had many years back to facilitate point control by wire in tube.

 

Now to start work on the shiny new points....

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...