Question of Supplies

[RBTKraisee]

7 hours ago, Forester said:

All I'm saying to the OP is those same models are available in good numbers in pristine condition, just not in model shops.

 

That would be great!   Now how do I obtain some of them?

 

I check ebay every day, and not just .co.uk, I check .com and .ie routinely too and sometimes even farther afield.   I do the Google searches every few days too - I actually spend a horrendous amount of time looking and should be doing other, more productive things, but I seem to have developed a slight case of the "must haves" right now, precisely because so many of the things I want appear to be unavailable anywhere

 

And I've had four adverts in the Wanted section of this forum, looking for specific things.   They've been up long enough to have slipped to page 2, but so far I've had zip responses.   On another thread I did get a ping when I mentioned I wanted a Class 43 HST in GNER livery.   They appear to be one of these people with a model still sitting on the shelf, but they unfortunately haven't been able to turn it up in their storage, so that looks like a dead end for me too.

 

Are there other means available for reaching out to these owners of pristine no-longer-new models who might be willing to part with them?

 

Ross.

Edited June 13, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[KMS Railtech]

On 10/06/2020 at 20:40, Mike at C&M said:

One method of locating models that often seems to be forgotten is to do a Google search for the specific model you are looking for. There are lots of other shops than just the larger box shifters, and we sometimes have items on the shelf that many believe are no longer available anywhere.

 

Much of our mail order business through the lockdown has resulted from people doing such specific searches and finding we do still have stock a long time after release.

 

This may seem to be extremely basic, but is often overlooked

Agreed. This goes for all scales, and even things like track and point motors etc. Just because the biggest two are sold out, doesn’t mean we are. 

[Forester]

7 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

So, in support of Phil, you don't have any evidence and thus it is merely your opinion.

 

Claiming something does not make it a fact.

 

And while I can't definitely say the hobby is growing, the evidence - the every increasing numbers of items released each year, the number of new entrants into the manufacturing side of things - is that the hobby is at worst stationary or more likely growing.

 

In addition to the obvious indications, there is also the growth in the laser cut industry, 3D printed items, and hobbyists buying and designing items for their layout themselves via these new technologies.

 

In other words, the hobby is as ever evolving and changing.

 

 

The OP is Specifically seeking "accurate" coaches and large detailed locos.

 

The price of these items has escalated to levels unaffordable to most. Two hundred pound locos, Seventy pound coaches.

These detailed items are therefore largely being purchased by a reducing band of people who can afford to buy them new.

Why is this even controversial?  I didn't say the whole hobby was in decline. We have Railroad and cheaper items to cater for a majority market, which may or may not be thriving.

 

All I'm saying is many of the top end of market items the OP is seeking are not being used by the small number of purchasers  able to buy them new from dealers and they then return to the market as "used," but in reality often unused, These are worth looking out for.

 

 

[Forester]

7 hours ago, RBTKraisee said:

 

That would be great!   Now how do I obtain some of them?

 

I check ebay every day, and not just .co.uk, I check .com and .ie routinely too and sometimes even farther afield.   I do the Google searches every few days too - I actually spend a horrendous amount of time looking and should be doing other, more productive things, but I seem to have developed a slight case of the "must haves" right now, precisely because so many of the things I want appear to be unavailable anywhere

 

And I've had four adverts in the Wanted section of this forum, looking for specific things.   They've been up long enough to have slipped to page 2, but so far I've had zip responses.   On another thread I did get a ping when I mentioned I wanted a Class 43 HST in GNER livery.   They appear to be one of these people with a model still sitting on the shelf, but they unfortunately haven't been able to turn it up in their storage, so that looks like a dead end for me too.

 

Are there other means available for reaching out to these owners of pristine no-longer-new models who might be willing to part with them?

 

Ross.

 

You seem to be doing it right. The items you want will appear eventually.

Patience is a part of the experience of modelling.

At least you probably won't have to wait five years to find your pre-owned items, as some of us buying new have that long to wait for our items to come to market !

[Butler Henderson]

One thing to bear in mind is that some models are improved over time so it pays to read up the relevant thread on this forum for example. I lost count of exactly how many different motors Dapol fitted to their 66s, while most IIxion Manors but possibly not Dapol one (after Dapol took the model on) have different electrical connections to the tender, the original non wire version was fine in concept but as I found out was self destructive if the loco shorted.

[Phil Parker]

15 minutes ago, Forester said:

The price of these items has escalated to levels unaffordable to most. Two hundred pound locos, Seventy pound coaches.

These detailed items are therefore largely being purchased by a reducing band of people who can afford to buy them new.

Why is this even controversial?  I didn't say the whole hobby was in decline. We have Railroad and cheaper items to cater for a majority market, which may or may not be thriving

 

What you said was "We live at a time where vast numbers of models are pumped out by ever-increasing numbers of producers to an ever-reducing model fraternity." - I didn't see a caveat that you were referring to the "top end" of the hobby.

 

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

So, in support of Phil, you don't have any evidence and thus it is merely your opinion.

 

Claiming something does not make it a fact.

 

Which is my point. Just posting something on here does not make it a fact. If you are claiming some expertise of knowledge, now is the time to "show your working". Extrapolating from yourself, doesn't count.

 

My evidence that you are wrong is that these items that are "unaffordable to most" are selling out. This whole tread is based on the point that the OP can't get hold of models he wants. If they were unaffordable, they would be sat on shelves gathering dust in model shops. They aren't, so either the makers are throwing them away, or someone is buying them. Since we see ever more models, there is rarely a month without at least one major new product in the magazines, then either the reducing band is buying an awful lot or there are enough people out there who are willing to spend on a high-quality model.

 

The price topic is another very old topic - here's an example from over half a century ago - and it's not going to go away. As modellers, we demand better levels of detail, more separately fitted parts and better mechanisms each year. We also want more obscure models that will be less popular requiring each to cover its development costs over a smaller number of units. You aren't going to solve it here or anywhere else. If you think you can, well it's time for you to enter the hobby with your range. If you are right, you'll clean up.

 

Coming back to the OP, the wide variety of models we now have available causes the shortages. It's possible to keep a tiny range in stock all the time. With a wider range, you make a batch and then go and do something else. Some items (16T mineral wagons for example) are bread and butter models, others like Dynamometer Cars and Observation coaches won't sell all the time, so you make a batch. There is a thriving second-hand market for people who miss out. If demand is sufficient, then another batch will appear eventually. It's always worth keeping a watch on eBay and also staying in touch with model shops. Regulars at a local shop who are well known to the owner will often hear about models on their "wish list" before the box lands on the shelf, a system that works for both seller and customer.

[Hal Nail]

27 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Just posting something on here does not make it a fact.

 

Are you sure? I thought that was how social media works? 

 

[truffy]

25 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Are you sure? I thought that was how social media works? 

 

Only for influencers. 

[Guest Half-full]

3 hours ago, Forester said:

 

The OP is Specifically seeking "accurate" coaches and large detailed locos.

 

The price of these items has escalated to levels unaffordable to most. Two hundred pound locos, Seventy pound coaches.

These detailed items are therefore largely being purchased by a reducing band of people who can afford to buy them new.

Why is this even controversial?  I didn't say the whole hobby was in decline. We have Railroad and cheaper items to cater for a majority market, which may or may not be thriving.

 

All I'm saying is many of the top end of market items the OP is seeking are not being used by the small number of purchasers  able to buy them new from dealers and they then return to the market as "used," but in reality often unused, These are worth looking out for.

 

 

I had to read this a few times in case I was getting confused.

 

If new items are so expensive and only being bought by a reducing band of people, why are they selling out on pre-order?  That must be one of the daftest things I've read on here.

 

Railroad and cheaper items are the models that stay on the shelves for a lot longer.

[Forester]

5 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

What you said was "We live at a time where vast numbers of models are pumped out by ever-increasing numbers of producers to an ever-reducing model fraternity." - I didn't see a caveat that you were referring to the "top end" of the hobby.

 

 

Which is my point. Just posting something on here does not make it a fact. If you are claiming some expertise of knowledge, now is the time to "show your working". Extrapolating from yourself, doesn't count.

 

My evidence that you are wrong is that these items that are "unaffordable to most" are selling out. This whole tread is based on the point that the OP can't get hold of models he wants. If they were unaffordable, they would be sat on shelves gathering dust in model shops. They aren't, so either the makers are throwing them away, or someone is buying them. Since we see ever more models, there is rarely a month without at least one major new product in the magazines, then either the reducing band is buying an awful lot or there are enough people out there who are willing to spend on a high-quality model.

 

The price topic is another very old topic - here's an example from over half a century ago - and it's not going to go away. As modellers, we demand better levels of detail, more separately fitted parts and better mechanisms each year. We also want more obscure models that will be less popular requiring each to cover its development costs over a smaller number of units. You aren't going to solve it here or anywhere else. If you think you can, well it's time for you to enter the hobby with your range. If you are right, you'll clean up.

 

Coming back to the OP, the wide variety of models we now have available causes the shortages. It's possible to keep a tiny range in stock all the time. With a wider range, you make a batch and then go and do something else. Some items (16T mineral wagons for example) are bread and butter models, others like Dynamometer Cars and Observation coaches won't sell all the time, so you make a batch. There is a thriving second-hand market for people who miss out. If demand is sufficient, then another batch will appear eventually. It's always worth keeping a watch on eBay and also staying in touch with model shops. Regulars at a local shop who are well known to the owner will often hear about models on their "wish list" before the box lands on the shelf, a system that works for both seller and customer.

 

More knee-jerk.

No one can now post on rmweb about the cost of models or the size of the modelling community without being shouted down.

 

OK. Your game, your rules.

 

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, Forester said:

More knee-jerk.

No one can now post on rmweb about the cost of models or the size of the modelling community without being shouted down.

 

 

People are always posting on RMweb about prices - it's why I and many others get bored when someone rides this particular hobby horse into unrelated topics. A quick check on previous posts shows prices are a particular bone of contention for you. The OP is more concerned he can't get the models he wants at ANY price.

 

8 minutes ago, Forester said:

OK. Your game, your rules.

 

 

The rules are - if you are going to make a definite statement such as "an ever-reducing model fraternity", then you have to be willing to back it up with some evidence. So far you've failed to do this. The only person shouting anyone down is you.

[D9020 Nimbus]

The OP was referring to N gauge. £70 coaches as mentioned in an earlier post haven't appeared in N yet—the soon-to-come Farish Thompson coaches are half that price.

 

We're never going to see, IMHO, the always-available models of the past in the UK., although Märklin/Trix in Germany have a range of models they plan to keep always available — don't know how well they achieve this, though. As it is popular models do get rerun from time to time, but manufacturers are wary of over-saturating the market—they've learnt from experience.

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, Forester said:

The OP is Specifically seeking "accurate" coaches and large detailed locos.

 

The price of these items has escalated to levels unaffordable to most. Two hundred pound locos, Seventy pound coaches.

These detailed items are therefore largely being purchased by a reducing band of people who can afford to buy them new.

Why is this even controversial?

 

Because again you are making a claim, stating it as fact, with no evidence to back it up.

 

Now, I will concede the following example is the US and not the UK and so things could potentially be different - but what the various companies are doing suggests it is roughly the same.

 

About 4 to 5 years ago now a new company was created called ScaleTrains, and it was founded by a couple of people who had left Athearn (one of the big US manufacturers).

 

They had "listened" to what people were saying and so they launched with a range of products - they called them Operator (aka few details, no roadname specific details, affordable), Rivet Counter, and Museum.

 

Museum has had only 1 product so far.

 

But 99% of their releases are available in both Operator and Rivet Counter.

 

And at some point recently they (whether it was a podcast or Facebook Live session) let it be known that the Rivet Counter sales were 85%-90% of sales, with Operator only taking 10% to 15% for any given model.

 

Now, this is speculation on my part, but given the poor sales, the inventory problems, and the "games"* they play to keep the Operator line going it would not surprise me to see it either get dropped entirely, or be limited in the future to only certain models.

 

Another example - Rapido attempted to do a line of "affordable lower detailed" models - they abandoned it after the first 2 products because the market made it clear to them that the market did not want a lower end model.

 

As the saying goes, the market has spoken - the majority of the market wants and pays for the detailed accurate items.  It is the lower end of the market that is in decline.

 

Of course, if we are all wrong and you are correct, that there is a huge market for cheaper items then someone with money should be rushing in to serve that untapped market.

 

* the started releasing certain roadnames in Operator only versions, thus (to me) attempting to force people to buy the Operator line to keep it going.

[mdvle]

14 hours ago, RBTKraisee said:

I check ebay every day, and not just .co.uk, I check .com and .ie routinely too and sometimes even farther afield.   I do the Google searches every few days too - I actually spend a horrendous amount of time looking and should be doing other, more productive things, but I seem to have developed a slight case of the "must haves" right now, precisely because so many of the things I want appear to be unavailable anywhere

 

To be clear I am not picking on you, as many are likely doing what you do.

 

But you shouldn't be spending all this time doing it, the answer is to automate your searches so the computers do it for you.

 

eBay offers the ability to have your searches saved and the results mailed to you, daily I believe.

 

For Google, look into Google Alerts, where again Google will email you daily results of running your search query.

 

There is no reason for you to be to this manually.

 

And also note that eBay, unless you specify otherwise, searches their listing worldwide - there normally should be no reason to be going to country specific versions.

 

 

[RBTKraisee]

15 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The OP was referring to N gauge. £70 coaches as mentioned in an earlier post haven't appeared in N yet—the soon-to-come Farish Thompson coaches are half that price.

 

If the prices are like that (I guess in OO gauge?) it makes me doubly glad I'm collecting N

 

There was a used Farish Maroon Mk1 BSK on ebay the other day that, including shipping to me here in the US, would have cost me about 65 quid to win.   I dropped out of the bidding below 50 quid because I can buy two brand new coaches of a different style for that.   I could even buy two BCK's almost anywhere, afford to wreck the first one while practicing removing the "1" off the door and still pay less than £65!   Mind, I'm fairly sure I'll find a reasonably priced BSK from somewhere in the end.

 

 

We're never going to see, IMHO, the always-available models of the past in the UK., although Märklin/Trix in Germany have a range of models they plan to keep always available — don't know how well they achieve this, though. As it is popular models do get rerun from time to time, but manufacturers are wary of over-saturating the market—they've learnt from experience.

 

It's a definite pity that this is the case, but when the market is relatively small, it seems to be what manufacturers need to do in order to keep their business healthy.   When push comes to shove, I'd definitely rather have to deal with reissues every few years than see any of these companies go to the wall.

 

Ross.

[RBTKraisee]

14 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

To be clear I am not picking on you, as many are likely doing what you do.

 

But you shouldn't be spending all this time doing it, the answer is to automate your searches so the computers do it for you.

 

eBay offers the ability to have your searches saved and the results mailed to you, daily I believe.

 

For Google, look into Google Alerts, where again Google will email you daily results of running your search query.

 

There is no reason for you to be to this manually.

 

And also note that eBay, unless you specify otherwise, searches their listing worldwide - there normally should be no reason to be going to country specific versions.

 

 

 

Good advice. I used to be a computer uber-geek, so I should know better

 

FYI, ebay doesn't always list everything globally.   I've noticed that foreign (not the seller's country) versions of the sites only show items if the seller has included international shipping info.   If that's missing then it sometimes appears elsewhere, sometimes does not.

 

There appear to be a few other clauses that change listings too, but I haven't isolated the causes yet.

 

Oh, and just for fun, this one is a puzzle.   It lists on the first page in google.com when you search for the product number "Dapol 2S-011-005" but doesn't turn up in *ANY* ebay search on *ANY* of ebay's sites that I can find, not even ebay.ie!   I really thought about buying it, but as I don't have sound on any of my other trains, the £395 price tag seems a bit high (especially given Dapol's catalogue says they're going to do new Flying Scotsman's in 2020, so I'm likely to have to wait for that):

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/2S-011-005-DCC-SOUND-Dapol-A3-FLYING-SCOTSMAN-4472-LNER-APPLE-GREEN-TRAIN-PACK-/371850745886?hash=item569408181e%3Ag%3ASfMAAOSwUKxYds2s&_trkparms=pageci%3A8f43e90e-4218-11e7-a1c9-74dbd180e546%7Cparentrq%3A44fa90f115c0ab4cad5c323fffff323a%7Ciid%3A2

 

Ross.

[mdvle]

10 hours ago, RBTKraisee said:

FYI, ebay doesn't always list everything globally.   I've noticed that foreign (not the seller's country) versions of the sites only show items if the seller has included international shipping info.   If that's missing then it sometimes appears elsewhere, sometimes does not.

 

You may occasionally get lucky, but if they don't list international shipping then most of the time they are unwilling to do so, so if you aren't local the listing doesn't do you any good.

 

If you have a way to accept the item in the sellers country then that restriction won't matter, in which case I would think setting up a search on the version of eBay where you can do that would solve that problem.

 

 

10 hours ago, RBTKraisee said:

Oh, and just for fun, this one is a puzzle.   It lists on the first page in google.com when you search for the product number "Dapol 2S-011-005" but doesn't turn up in *ANY* ebay search on *ANY* of ebay's sites that I can find, not even ebay.ie!   I really thought about buying it, but as I don't have sound on any of my other trains, the £395 price tag seems a bit high (especially given Dapol's catalogue says they're going to do new Flying Scotsman's in 2020, so I'm likely to have to wait for that):

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/2S-011-005-DCC-SOUND-Dapol-A3-FLYING-SCOTSMAN-4472-LNER-APPLE-GREEN-TRAIN-PACK-/371850745886?hash=item569408181e%3Ag%3ASfMAAOSwUKxYds2s&_trkparms=pageci%3A8f43e90e-4218-11e7-a1c9-74dbd180e546%7Cparentrq%3A44fa90f115c0ab4cad5c323fffff323a%7Ciid%3A2

 

Note the banner near the top of the page - "This listing has ended" - and the fact that there are no buttons to bid/buy/follow - it is an archive page of a previous listing.  As such I would not expect an eBay search to turn it up, though there may be options in advanced searches to find finished listings.

[Les1952]

17 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

You may occasionally get lucky, but if they don't list international shipping then most of the time they are unwilling to do so, so if you aren't local the listing doesn't do you any good.

 

If you have a way to accept the item in the sellers country then that restriction won't matter, in which case I would think setting up a search on the version of eBay where you can do that would solve that problem.

 

 

 

Note the banner near the top of the page - "This listing has ended" - and the fact that there are no buttons to bid/buy/follow - it is an archive page of a previous listing.  As such I would not expect an eBay search to turn it up, though there may be options in advanced searches to find finished listings.

 

eBay doesn't list globally as a matter of course.  If you are in the UK then (unless things have changed recently) you pay an additional fee to list on eBay US and I believe certain of their other sites.  

 

eBay remove sold items from their searches, but Google archive whatever is showing when their bots see it, and the listing shows up.  Always more accurate to search within eBay.

 

On international charges.  If an overseas listing you find doesn't show postage to the UK it often means they don't want to post to the UK- and that is something which seems to be increasing since the end of January. 

 

International returns are the same as UK returns apart from the size of the postal bill.  I returned a Liliput railcar (new but dead on arrival) to Germany with no problems at all.  Success or failure depends on the seller and foreign ones are no different from UK sellers in this respect (apart from their native tongue).

 

At this point I take my eBay sellers hat off...

Les

(not eBay's biggest fan but they are very useful).

[andyman7]

For anyone complaining prices are too high for superdetail models, here's a December 1965 advert from Eames of Reading in Model Railway Constructor, offering the Anbrico built to order RTR set of Coronation Scot coaches in 00. Yours for £88/7s (£88.35) which in today's money is £1,716.75 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator.

 

[The Johnster]

The ‘Bay market seems pretty aware of trends and will respond quite rapidly to the iron and immutable laws of supply and demand, perhaps surprisingly so for something so open to the vagaries of general public use.  Most of what I’ve had from it has been BIN, as I’ve found auctions to be time consuming and disappointing when you lose.  The final selling price is usually around the BIN price anyway.  Overpriced items don’t sell and underpriced ones are rare. 
 

I have adopted a policy of only bothering with auctions for things I don ‘t really want but wouldn’t mind having but don’t want at market rates, and on occasion have gotten bargains, but my success rate is low.  That said, a K’s E116 B set for less than £12 in total isn’t bad, and the coaches, worked up with Comet ends, better buffers and interiors, are a useful addition.  These go cheap because they are crude by modern standards, but with a bit of work can be made into acceptable ‘layout coaches’. 
 

As an example, I recently bid for a Triang Dock Authority shunting loco that was going for little over £5 inc P&P when I joined the bidding.   In the meantime a similar loco came up BIN for around 20.  I bought it, and the auction loco went for over £23.  I am happy with my purchase; hopefully  so is the auction ‘winner’.  
 

Things cost what they cost, and everyone wants them cheaper.  If you can’t afford, you must do without, or increase your disposable income.  One of these things is much harder than the other...

[Les1952]

There are two sure rules with eBay.

 

You very rarely get what you think your item is worth, 

 

And you almost always pay more for an item than you think it is really worth when you get it.

 

Les

[dpgibbons]

Ross - Hattons pre-owned section has a good flow of British N Gauge, mostly "As New". They charge a bit more than eBay, but for overseas buyers they deduct 20% VAT, their international mail rates are remarkably low and they accept returns without quibbles and will refund postage. Their stuff sells out pretty quickly, but you can set up a wish-list and get e-mail alerts. And they now have a trunk service whereby you can accumulate small purchases into economic package sizes prior to despatch.

 

I must have bought 30 or more pre-owned locos from them and I've only had to return one, which is about the same failure rate as buying new.  

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

23 hours ago, andyman7 said:

For anyone complaining prices are too high for superdetail models, here's a December 1965 advert from Eames of Reading in Model Railway Constructor, offering the Anbrico built to order RTR set of Coronation Scot coaches in 00. Yours for £88/7s (£88.35) which in today's money is £1,716.75 according to the Bank of England inflation calculator.

 

 

How much for a similar set now?

 

£250 to £350 each.

 

Which works out at £1500 to £2100 for a 6 car set.

 

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/lms-coaches-oo-gauge.html

 

 

Jason

[RBTKraisee]

5 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

Ross - Hattons pre-owned section has a good flow of British N Gauge, mostly "As New". They charge a bit more than eBay, but for overseas buyers they deduct 20% VAT, their international mail rates are remarkably low and they accept returns without quibbles and will refund postage. Their stuff sells out pretty quickly, but you can set up a wish-list and get e-mail alerts. And they now have a trunk service whereby you can accumulate small purchases into economic package sizes prior to despatch.

 

I must have bought 30 or more pre-owned locos from them and I've only had to return one, which is about the same failure rate as buying new. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll go check it out.

 

Ross.

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, Les1952 said:

There are two sure rules with eBay.

 

You very rarely get what you think your item is worth, 

 

And you almost always pay more for an item than you think it is really worth when you get it.

 

Les

Were all profit seeking salesmen, looking for opportunities at heart.

Edited June 18, 2020 by adb968008