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Hi Harlequin

 

9 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Since the branch platform loop connects to the main line at the other end of the platform you could avoid the second connection at this end as well..???

 

Do you mean these 2 points and the crossing?

 

Cheers

Pete

pgcroc2.png

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5 minutes ago, pgcroc said:

Hi Harlequin

 

 

Do you mean these 2 points and the crossing?

 

Cheers

Pete

pgcroc2.png

Those could be dispensed with, and then you'd only be able to use platforms 2&4 for the branch (counting from the top). Make the slip into a double and you could also use 3, but double slips in running lines were rare, so I think what I drew would be more likely than having a double slip.

Edited by Zomboid
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Hi Pete, with regards to the right hand end of the station, if you could move the crossover onto the curve beyond the points for the loops I think it might help operations, but it puts it on the curve and starts to get quite close to the Fiddle Yard loops, so it’s not necessarily going to be what you want to do. I suppose “try it and see” is the suggestion?

 

I don’t if this will help or not, but one thing to think about is how you get to the MPD parallel to the station without too much zig-zagging across main lines, especially from the far side.

 

 I don’t know if this works, if the crossover has to stay put, but I’d probably throw something like this out for comment:

 

279A3C35-5E6B-4C61-BD2D-6EDD64A8DA74.jpeg.33494c2e3cebe53454c554dffcee2be3.jpeg
 

An engine from an Up train at Platform 1 or 2 uncouples and pulls forwards to A.

I think it then takes crossover B to run (correct line but in reverse) through platform 3 as far as C.

It then goes through crossovers D and E to get to the extra loop I’ve added, from which it can get to the MPD.

 

Engines from trains in platform 4 pull forwards and reverse through F to get to the MPD as their train probably fouls points E.

 

Siding G is the kind of useful Siding for storing any coaches taken out of service for some reason.

The short headshunt marked “1 loco“ is to help the replacement engine for the train in platform 1 or 2 get to its train.

 

It’s all a bit complicated, sorry.  My guess is that the real Railway would move crossover B beyond point A after all, so engines could then get straight into and out of the MPD at that end of the station using the start of the loop line for Platform 4.

 

You’ll realise I’m working in HB Staedtler Noris and not to scale, and if this gives you a headache please ignore it.  Keith.

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
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Re the right hand side - I hadn't noticed your purple branch makes another junction with the inner circuit over there.  My first thought was does it have to?  If so, you have the reverse problem of how to get to the branch from the outer (clockwise) circuit.  The simplest (!) way would be to replace the single point where purple meets blue with a single slip and a right hand point in the outer circuit (you're allowed a facing point there) but I don't know how much that would mess up the curves in the top right corner.  It's getting very complicated .....

 

Back to the platforms, they have to be about 35mm narrower than the track centre-line separation - and anything less than 80mm looks pretty skinny for an island platform.  For the parallel tracks between a pair of platforms, Streamline geometry gives you a 50mm track spacing.

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Pete, my apologies for putting too many posts on your thread - I woke up early and the house is quiet so I had a quick play in Anyrail and I wonder if this might help? (it does need to be checked):

 

1124743811_pgcroc1.jpg.97d23835cf5d99ee05d856cd9a6e41f1.jpg

 

The left-hand end is the overlapped version of the junction suggested yesterday:

 

916586996_pgcroc2.jpg.6a8f098a230cd8dc7fe9810553c05293.jpg

 

There are points across the awkward joint (sorry), but as this is more compact to start with then hopefully things can either slide about a bit (the points or the baseboard support), or be stretched to fit - the entry point for Platform 1 could move to the left for example: Platform 1 is only for Up Mainline Trains.

 

Peco points basically have a standard 12 degree divergence, so you can swap the 5 conventional Long Points I've put in (not counting the extra one for the MPD loop) for Medium Points or Short Points and get exactly the same geometry in a shorter space, which is why I did it this way.

 

For the right-hand end, I had an idea:

 

1824981472_pgcroc3.jpg.293ae0de86f02db062d7de377ed746a2.jpg

 

Using a couple of Single Slips, I can get the Branch Line across to Platform 2 so Up trains can get onto the Branch.  Trains on the Down Main Line can still get to Platforms 3 or 4, and so can trains coming off the Branch. 

 

The trailing crossover moves beyond the end of the Platforms, which I'd recommend, but without stretching the whole thing too far round the curve - it just means a train can’t depart from Platform 4 to the Up Main Line.

The only point that reduces the length of the Platform is the junction point from Platform 2 onto the Branch (this should be OK - Branch passenger trains may be shorter, and Goods Trains don't mind).

 

Note: there is a very slight curve towards the right hand end of the Platforms (visible on Platform 2) to make this work.

 

An engine from platform 2 can use the Branch Line to get to the MPD more quickly too - I think this would be allowed as it doesn’t have to block the Down Line to do so.

 

If you only want to use Platforms 2 and 4 for Branch Trains at the right hand end (as at the left-hand end) you can save a few quid and just have one single slip point (on Platform 4) and a straight X crossing on Platform 3 - it just means Engines from Platform 1 only have one option to zig-zag to the MPD (via Platform 2).

 

There is no connection between the Branch Line and Platform 1 at either end, but I'd suggest this is OK.  I hope this might give you some ideas (I over-wrote a sketch I did last night to edit this post and put this in, as I think it may be more helpful.  Hope that's OK).

 

Keith.

 

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
(Revised Post - original no longer required)
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The only thing I'd add is that the platforms need to be wider than that shows, which might change things at the left hand end with more spacing around the diamond to get extra width and maybe use a left hand turnout at the start of P4 to then come back round.

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Keith, Chimer and Zomboid

 

A lot of things to consider!

 

11 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Pete, my apologies for putting too many posts on your thread - I woke up early and the house is quiet so I had a quick play in Anyrail and I wonder if this might help? (it does need to be checked):

No need to apologise Keith. Hopefully with all the suggestions being put forward a final plan can be done.

 

I will print them all out once I can get access to my printer. (My wife is working from home and has bagged it for her 'office' in a spare bedroom).

 

Once I have finished my coffee I will go to the garage and see if that pesky baseboard bracing can be moved at the top left corner. If it can then some woodworkery will have to be done, (at some time), about which I know less than I know about trains.

 

Did I mention somewhere that I am using code 100 and electrofrog points.

A Peco single slip, SL E180, is code 75 so you have to use the SL 113 transition piece at each end point.

Plus this single slip is over £40 !!!!!! 

A double slip, SL E1490, is the same, code 75 and over £50!

 

This 'hobby' is very expensive.

 

Back later.

 

Cheers

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, pgcroc said:

Plus this single slip is over £40 !!!!!! 

A double slip, SL E1490, is the same, code 75 and over £50!

A bit overpriced, I'm seeing (and have just purchased) code 75 electrofrog singles £36 and doubles at £38 at Hattons, and in stock at the moment.

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6 minutes ago, Chimer said:

There are Code 100 single and double slips  (SL 80 & 90), identical geometry to the Code 75 versions.

 

Did not know that Chimer, thought Peco only made them in code 75. Read that somewhere. Should have checked!

 

Just looked it up on the Peco site, the code 100 double slip is cheaper than the code 75.

Insulfrog though.

 

Thanks 

Pete

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

A bit overpriced, I'm seeing (and have just purchased) code 75 electrofrog singles £36 and doubles at £38 at Hattons, and in stock at the moment.

 

Thanks Mr Chuffer

 

I did not search the internet for cheaper ones. Just wanted to get a rough idea of price from Peco.

If you have followed this thread you will see that nothing has been finalised yet for my layout.

Work in progress.

 

Cheers

Pete

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48 minutes ago, pgcroc said:

nothing has been finalised yet for my layout

I've gone from nothing to the verge of track laying of a large, 20+ points BLT during lockdown, the compromise is code 75 as I would have liked to use bullhead but availability is patchy and I needed some small radius turnouts so I will be cutting the sleeper webbing and spacing the sleepers out for a better look.

 

My tip is to not buy all the track in one go, however the tempting "free postage for quantities" may be as I've found that despite having all the track templates laid end to end, getting some actual track components and laying them in place led to some changes from the original template-based plan. Nothing like running half a dozen wagons through a series of turnouts to get the track alignment right, and now I have all my track laid out ready to fix.

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8 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

I've gone from nothing to the verge of track laying of a large, 20+ points BLT during lockdown, the compromise is code 75 as I would have liked to use bullhead but availability is patchy and I needed some small radius turnouts so I will be cutting the sleeper webbing and spacing the sleepers out for a better look.

 

I've got 27 points on the layout as it is at the moment. This will undoubtedly change.

At last count I have 36 points of different persuasions, not all of which will be used. The extra will be sold off as they are brand new.

I have around 28 Tortoise motors. Hopefully may not need all of them also.

 

Bought a lot of this stuff over the last 4 years when the layout was just a hope if space could be released by SWMBO. Car sold, space grabbed!

 

Now to the garage!

 

Cheers 

Pete 

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2 hours ago, pgcroc said:

Did I mention somewhere that I am using code 100 and electrofrog points.

A Peco single slip, SL E180, is code 75 so you have to use the SL 113 transition piece at each end point.

Plus this single slip is over £40 !!!!!! 

A double slip, SL E1490, is the same, code 75 and over £50!

 

This 'hobby' is very expensive.

 

Back later.

 

Cheers

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Chimer said:

There are Code 100 single and double slips  (SL 80 & 90), identical geometry to the Code 75 versions.


Sorry - I should have specified that the Single Slips I used are the Insulfrogs from the Code 100 range.

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3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The only thing I'd add is that the platforms need to be wider than that shows, which might change things at the left hand end with more spacing around the diamond to get extra width and maybe use a left hand turnout at the start of P4 to then come back round.


Good point.  I’ve double checked and I did make a mistake.  My track spacing are:

 

P1 to P2 = 4”  (double the standard width spacing: this is what I went for but doesn’t allow for wider island platforms)

P2 to P3 = 2”  (usual spacing for double track - OK)
P3 to P4 = 3”  (oops! I thought I’d specified 4”)

 

I’ll have a quick play over lunch with a 5” spacing: it should work as you say.

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This is vaguely similar to the station I drew earlier, but rotated by 180° (or flipped).

 

 

pgcroc5.png.4f5ec2ab2915d095aa0316e7a62e8191.png

 

My one island platform was 70mm wide. The other platform was not an island so that it could accommodate a traditional station building with level road access.

Tighter radii heading towards the lifting section on the left.

Larger curvaceous radii heading into the scenic end on the right.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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This version only uses plain crossings - no slip points, so can be done with Electrofrog points from the Peco range.

 

The left hand end is fairly conventional - I've just added back a trailing crossover between P2 and P3.  I'm sure a prototype like this could be found, for exactly the reason I've done it: to eliminate Slip points.

 

506247022_pgcroc5.jpg.19b9e42aa0e868fff0b34fd905fd32bc.jpg

 

I think the right-hand end works, but it does look a bit messy - a bit like a modern day rationalisation scheme!

 

As at the left-hand end, the trailing crossover is back 'inside' the junction points and P1 is just for Up Mainline Trains (like Pete's 'starting' Scheme posted on Tuesday).

 

The bit I don't really like (and this is my own drawing) is the way the Down Main line separates then swings into P3 using the trailing crossover point. I'll share it in case it helps prompt a better or smoother suggestion.  In the Steam era, slip points were more common, so this may not help here - it's more about the Peco track range.

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
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6 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

think the right-hand end works, but it does look a bit messy - a bit like a modern day rationalisation scheme!

 

It does look good for a post-1960 scheme, but rather unlikely for a traditional layout.

 

In my opinion too much is being squeezed into this plan by trying to get connections to the branch both ways at each end of the station.

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1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

It does look good for a post-1960 scheme, but rather unlikely for a traditional layout.

 

In my opinion too much is being squeezed into this plan by trying to get connections to the branch both ways at each end of the station.

 

Fair comment - it may be Pete decides it is too cramped (or too expensive in points!).  I think the operational challenge is to enable trains to swap onto and off the continuous run branch line seamlessly. I don't think he's got room for one big junction just at one end of the Station - though I could be totally wrong on this of course.

 

Keeping to the 'rule' of not using Slip Points, one easier way to arrange the junctions could be like this - (it only took me a couple of minutes to make the amendments, for example):

 

669717709_pgcroc6.jpg.4fcdc24fbbafc9ab374739d22ba5210e.jpg

 

I think this may still look plausible as a Station layout serving two Branch Lines and Mainline Trains to London (using P1), though do please correct me if I'm wrong.  I certainly think the right-hand end looks neater, and the left-hand end still looks interesting?  The run-round is longer - as the right-hand crossover is part of the junction.

 

Irrespective of direction however I think any Train on the Branch Line (in P4) has to exit onto the Mainline before a new Train can enter the Branch - P4 is effectively part of one big Junction arrangement. [Note: the MPD loop is not envisaged as a running line or fifth platform].  Mainline Trains could get backed up if a Branch Train is late?

 

I've had a bit of time this afternoon (waiting for weekly Online Video Edits to process), so how about this:

 

2086551474_pgcroc7.jpg.93a62cdc7b8a59154af815d5cf7ea93d.jpg

 

Unpack it and - if I've got it right, the exits from the Branch are at the Left-hand end (in both directions), while the entrances to the Branch (both directions) are at the right.  Up Trains use P2 to access the Branch (P1 is the Mainline Through track still), while Down Trains use P4.  

 

If the trains on the Branch are running in alternate directions I think this works - they swap by virtue of using both P2 and P4 - which is the justification for the more complex track plan.

 

With this idea the through Down platform (P3) is rather compromised by the run-round crossovers I've put back there though.

 

These are just some quick ideas from a quiet day behind the computer - as always, if they don't help or can't be justified by any known prototype, please ignore them.

 

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Right Guys,

 

I have been into the garage and the first 2 things are:

 

1) I can move the baseboard bracing at the top left by up to 9" to the left. This is shown by the dotted red line.

2) I can reach the NE corner if a train derails there albeit with, possibly, one hand on the baseboard.

 

A mug of coffee was consumed whilst I sat down there contemplating things. This is what I came up with:

 

Starting with the Branch line station. 

My main idea to have this was (i) to add a bit more interest, and (ii) for the transport of workers from the big town near the main station, (from P3 or P4.) They will work in the Factory or whatever else I can think of. The short trains arriving there will carry them. 

 

At the same time there will be goods trains arriving empty to carry away whatever is made there, (or bring raw materials for production), that is why there is a point near the station. (No idea on what I will do here yet but that's not important at the moment).

 

I am happy with any trains coming from the Branch Station travelling East to just go to P3 and P4. There is no real necessity to go to P1 and P2.

 

Now, the Main Platforms.

I think that the only thing here as I have a road coming from the East side towards the Workshops is that there may be freight that needs to be transhipped by road, from the Branch Station, (or raw materials to be delivered to the Factory). This would need the Goods Train to also be able to access P1 travelling West from the Branch Station. I do not think it needs to access P2. Perhaps a short siding off the line to P1 towards the Workshop area may be needed to keep it away from the main UP line. I have put one in, (blue), just to have a look at but it all looks very crowded there so it might not be a good idea.

Therefore I think that only the left hand of the main platforms need sorting out. What do you think about that for a story?

 

I have added labels and numbers to the plan to try and make it clearer.

 

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

In my opinion too much is being squeezed into this plan by trying to get connections to the branch both ways at each end of the station.

Thank you Flying Pig, this is what got me thinking about all the above.

 

All comments, brickbats and criticism accepted with good humour. If it was not for you guys I would not even be this far.

 

Cheers

Pete 

 

 

 

17_9_20.JPG

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Hi Pete, I think you drink better coffee than I do :).  It certainly helps to be able to do a ‘site visit’ - I know I’ve found it helpful for my own layout planning. 
 

Having had some fun in my breaks today pushing pieces around in Anyrail while waiting for my computer to catch up with YouTube, I’d also agree with @Flying Pig that the ‘do everything’ options do get too cramped and too expensive very quickly: if I couldn’t convince myself with my own drawings, I can’t expect to sell the ideas to anyone else! (ie: case proved for a simpler solution).

 

It looks like @Chimer’s initial version of the Junction at the left hand end of the Station - I don’t know enough about wiring for DCC to know what would need to be done to an Insulfrog Double Slip point, but there are plenty who can advise.

 

I always like a layout that has a story - and a purpose for the operations: helps decide what is needed and what isn’t.  Personally I’d go for Goods unloading in the Goods Shed and being taken to the workshops by cart and horse: not sure the GWR would want to put a facing Goods Siding point onto their main Down Platform Line so I wouldn’t have that.  Just a few thoughts as I’ve been around today.  Keith.

Edited by Keith Addenbrooke
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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Keith

 

10 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

It looks like @Chimer’s initial version of the Junction at the left hand end of the Station - I don’t know enough about wiring for DCC to know what would need to be done to an Insulfrog Double Slip point, but there are plenty who can advise.

 

I don't know very much about Insulfrog points either. It will be looked at.

 

11 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I always like a layout that has a story - and a purpose for the operations: helps decide what is needed and what isn’t.  Personally I’d go for Goods unloading in the Goods Shed and being taken to the workshops by cart and horse: not sure the GWR would want to put a facing Goods Siding point onto their main Down Platform Line so I wouldn’t have that.  Just a few thoughts as I’ve been around today.  Keith.

 

What I meant is that, (sorry I did not make it clear), if the Factory was a Brewery for instance, then the casks would travel by train to the siding North of P1 and be loaded onto trucks that come in on the road from the East. I was not intending to supply the Workshops. Apologies.

Stuff for the workshops, (might even have a chip shop there), can come by road.

I could change the facing point to a trailing one at the other end of P1. (?) The road will not be straight anyway. I am carp at forming curves with polygons!

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Stuff in the Goods Shed can go by road up to the town in the left hand corner.

 

I could also move the Auto Train line up close to the back wall and flip the siding over. Gives a bit more room North of the stations.

 

You guys make me think. (And it hurts !!!!!)

 

Cheers

Pete

 

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Stepping back a bit and looking at the overall situation, my latest confusing suggestion would be to make the branch station a terminus - single platform, runround loop, 2 kickback goods sidings.  Ditch the pink and maroon tracks linking back to the main lines on the right hand side.  Have a trailing access to the loco depot and any goods facilities you want at the main station from the left hand end of P4.  That loses the need for any junction at the right hand end of the main station, and makes the branch believable.

 

As I understand it, nothing needs to be done to insulfrog slips or diamonds, while the electrofrog versions present something of a challenge - probably why Peco have only bothered to go electrofrog for Code 75, and why I'll stick to Code 100!

 

And I see Pete's posted while I've been typing, so the goalposts have probably moved again :wacko:  Edit - oh good, they haven't.

Edited by Chimer
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