RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) Hi all, I'm at a point with S&P that I'm starting thinking about how it's all going to fit together, and that includes what it's going to stand on. I know that I want to support the joins between boards, rather than have the alignment dowels take weight. To that end my thoughts are that the single legs will be in made in pairs for each join, and so they can be reused on different board configurations they won't be permanently attached to boards or be folding. However, they do need to be height adjustable, by around 1 foot in total, for between 3 and 4 feet height difference; they need to be lightweight, and robust enough for general home use (there are no plans for exhibiting). My thoughts are for making them from plastic waste pipe approximately 41mm outside diameter / 35mm inside diameter for the main section (I have some of that I used to make some measuring rods for guessing height of buildings when photographing them and it's pretty robust stuff, and light), with a smaller 34mm outside diameter pipe to run inside the main section from the bottom for the height adjustable extending section. There would be holes made at 11 1 inch intervals for a 'locking pin', and a screw thread foot to cover the remaining inch for fine tuning height adjustment. There would be connecting beams of some kind between the two legs to keep the legs evenly apart, with a cross connector of some kind to prevent side-to-side twisting. I would then be fitting an angle connector to boards each side of the legs to keep the whole assembly upright. The tops of each leg set will have a flat top surface that the boards can rest on to take the weight off the alignment dowels and that would be wide enough to allow a board to be rested on it before connecting up to the next board. Has anybody tried such an idea before? What problems can others think of that I would need to address? One thought I have is that the holes for the height adjustment pins will need to be reinforced in some way otherwise the plastic pipe could deform around the locking pin due to the weight of the boards. TIA Edited June 12, 2020 by Ian J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCMarvel Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Sounds like you are re-inventing the wheel. Why move away from wood as they are going to be more bulky, they won't stack when not in use, end caps for the adjustrable feet will sag when under weight plus PVC piping goes brittle with age. 2x2" timber with ply cross bracing and a U-shaped metal top support to sit the board ends on is both easier to make and last forever. A sliding extension with a slot and two locking wingnuts is cheaper and does away with individual adjustable bought in feet. A simple plywood strip 45 degree brace keeps the legs vertical and keeps each pair of legs a universal fit so each pair can be used anywhere on the layout as long as every set is identical. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 11, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) Some valid points. However, 2x2 timber is too heavy. One of my requirements is to make the leg sets as light as possible. Stacking shouldn't be a problem, and at 41mm diameter, I fail to see how the pipe would be more bulky than 50mm per side timber. End caps wouldn't be used to fit the adjustable feet to, I would need something more robust. I've also found that timber is very variable in quality. I've made legs with it before and it's just not consistent enough and can warp with time. Admittedly this is only timber from the likes of B&Q which I know isn't the best supplier, but readily getting hold of decent timber isn't as easy as I need it to be. Plywood has to be cut, which I can do, but jigsaws are noisy and messy and I don't live somewhere I can afford to make that much noise and mess so invariably I end up having to ask for help from others, so I need simpler options. Edited June 11, 2020 by Ian J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2020 Whilst I admire your intentions to make your own layout legs, may I offer these as an alternative? https://www.screwfix.com/p/height-adjustable-metal-trestle/6561P?tc=HB6&ds_kid=92700048793290430&ds_rl=1244066&gclid=Cj0KCQjwiYL3BRDVARIsAF9E4Gd7afYQOPunKbMJlETfnpZh3tZPmKp2C6SX34rg662CZRMGYZwqAVkaArqxEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark Forrest Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 I’ve considered it, but ruled it out as not being sturdy enough. To be honest, the folding metal height adjustable trestles that you can get from DIY stores take some beating. Their only significant downside in my opinion is their bulky size when travelling with a portable layout, but if that isn’t an issue then I would look at those. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Right, please don't laugh. I used 50mm waste with various elbow fittings to form a stand that I used for DJ Equipment which consisted of 2 no. ends with aluminium X bracing struts two reinforced X tubes and was assembled using nothing more than locking pins. The top was a folding ply sheet and with the weight of all my equipment it did me good service for many years. Lightweight and a cheap alternative. I don't have any photographs unfortunately but i can confirm it certainly worked . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 11, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stubby47 said: Whilst I admire your intentions to make your own layout legs, may I offer these as an alternative? https://www.screwfix.com/p/height-adjustable-metal-trestle/6561P?tc=HB6&ds_kid=92700048793290430&ds_rl=1244066&gclid=Cj0KCQjwiYL3BRDVARIsAF9E4Gd7afYQOPunKbMJlETfnpZh3tZPmKp2C6SX34rg662CZRMGYZwqAVkaArqxEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds I did look at the trestles, however they are fairly bulky, and they would stop me using the space under the layout to store things. The room the layout has to go into has a number of self assembly metal storage shelves that I intend to part dismantle so they can be halved and fit under the layout, holding boxes of various model railway stuff and other things. The trestle's 'feet' would make that nigh on impossible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2020 If the layout is not being moved, the trestles don't have to be 'expanded', giving more room underneath. They could be supported by the metal shelving. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark Forrest Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 How long is the layout? If you place timber beams on top of trestles the number of trestles required might be fewer and the amount of free space available for storage wouldn’t be impacted as much. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rab Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 https://www.alloysales.co.uk/easyfix 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 11 hours ago, Ian J. said: *snip* My thoughts are for making them from plastic waste pipe approximately 41mm outside diameter / 35mm inside diameter for the main section (I have some of that I used to make some measuring rods for guessing height of buildings when photographing them and it's pretty robust stuff, and light), with a smaller 34mm outside diameter pipe to run inside the main section from the bottom for the height adjustable extending section. There would be holes made at 11 1 inch intervals for a 'locking pin', and a screw thread foot to cover the remaining inch for fine tuning height adjustment. There would be connecting beams of some kind between the two legs to keep the legs evenly apart, with a cross connector of some kind to prevent side-to-side twisting. I would then be fitting an angle connector to boards each side of the legs to keep the whole assembly upright. The tops of each leg set will have a flat top surface that the boards can rest on to take the weight off the alignment dowels and that would be wide enough to allow a board to be rested on it before connecting up to the next board. Has anybody tried such an idea before? What problems can others think of that I would need to address? One thought I have is that the holes for the height adjustment pins will need to be reinforced in some way otherwise the plastic pipe could deform around the locking pin due to the weight of the boards. TIA I'd suggest putting a ~75mm long timber plug/block (rounded of course to be a good 'fit') into the ends of the pipe. That'll make the ends more sturdy, and make them suitable for attaching other elements of the build with screws and/or bolts. If you are worried the plugs might move, then simply put a couple of screws though the side of the pipe into the plug. As an alternative, and going back to timber, I used cheap 44x18mm timber for my supports. It's not exactly heavy. I screwed a 50mm long offcut to the foot end into which I drilled a hole and installed an M8 tee-nut. Into the nut I screwed an M8 bolt to give me height adjustment. Details at: You may also be interested in my cheap-n-cheerful M8 bolt / sleeve / Tee-nut baseboard connection method just after the posting in the link above. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 11, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) I have thought about using the shelves to support the boards, but that would be a short term solution, legs would still be needed eventually. Connections between boards are already done with alignment dowels and toggles where possible. Plugging the end of a pipe with a shaped wooden insert for the adjustable feet to fix to is a good idea. The aluminium tube looks interesting too, ta. Edited June 11, 2020 by Ian J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I've used PVC double glazing window frames for layout legs (I had it spare - waste not, want not), fastened together with 10mm/12mm steel threaded rod* and bracketed to the wall. I don't think PVC going brittle would be a problem. It would make these and pipes rather useless for their intended purpose. * Not enormously expensive and readily adjustable. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ITG Posted June 11, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2020 I’m planning on using these Easyfix square section tubes, which have the benefit of (a) you can have them cut to size Prior to delivery and (b) you can get adjustable feet. I’m also going to use a framework of this for an upper board section Support, so as to maximise clearance above lower board. No connection other than satisfied with my delivery of sample parts, prior to measuring /ordering the final supply. https://www.aluminiumwarehouse.co.uk/easyfix-and-more/easyfix 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I used heavy duty plastic waste pipe to extend the legs of an above ground swimming pool ladder. First use, the plastic snapped. I'd avoid it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 11, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JeffP said: I used heavy duty plastic waste pipe to extend the legs of an above ground swimming pool ladder. First use, the plastic snapped. I'd avoid it. I'm not going to be standing on my layout so I'd hope this wouldn't happen. I think I will need to investigate aluminium square section tube to see if that might be a viable alternative. Edited June 11, 2020 by Ian J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 12, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2020 Some investigation of square aluminium tube reveals that that might be a better way to go, if a bit more expensive. However, I'll need to sort out making sure I can get a telescopic effect with one tube inside the other. That's certainly something I've seen in my searches, but not in a 'ready-to-use' form with sqaure section in the U.K. It's just a case of selecting the right inner tube outside dimension for the outer tube's inner dimension, and ensuring that there's enough room, but not too much room, for inner to move freely but not loosely inside the outer. There also seem to be end caps and adjustable foot fittings readily available. The biggest issue I'll have is drilling holes in the aluminium, for taking a peg to keep the telescopic distance right, and for adding cross beams, x bracing and corner braces. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 A visit to a friendly metal recycler might produce Dexion at a reasonable price. Alternatively look on Gumtree or Freecycle. At my previous house I built a pair of shelving units from chipboard and the layout lay on a pair of 3metre 4x2 beams . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Is this sort of thing any good 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted June 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2020 These may provide some ideas even if they're not exactly what you are looking for. https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/olov-leg-adjustable-white-10264302/ I am sitting at a desk with four similar legs and they work well. You set the leg length and twist it to lock. It is a two person job to adjust the height though unless the desk is cleared and upended. https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/finnvard-trestle-with-shelf-white-80150095/ My son is an artist and has a large desk top sitting on a couple of these trestles. They allow the desk top to be set flat or at an angle. They are stable, strong and have a useful storage shelf. They are not particularly compact for transportation though. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold teaky Posted June 13, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2020 Another idea is home made plywood angle legs with holes for dowel pegs. Each leg made from two 500mm lengths of angle, overlapped in the middle. A block of softwood at one end of each angle would provide for fixing to the baseboard at the top and for an adjustable foot at the bottom for leveling. When removed for transport the pieces would stack inside each other. If this description is too vague then I can knock up a diagram. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted June 13, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 13, 2020 Re existing table legs, mostly they're not suitable as they are too heavy; their top mounts for the underside of a table are far too large; no bracing can reasonably be attached securely to ensure stability. Re trestles, as I said early in the thread, they're too bulky at the floor and would block using the space under the layout for shelving/storage. Plywood angle legs would be fine, except, as previously mentioned, I don't have the facilities to do lots of plywood cutting without having to continuously ask others for help with space to make noise and mess. Right now paying for plywood to be cut by a timber merchant could be an option, if I could find one willing to cut to somewhat narrow sizes (thinking sub-100mm widths). But even then, I'm not sure I'd be much better off than going the aluminium square tube route, from the point of view of getting things done and the associated cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Now I have got my head round the idea that some modellers have to work in an totally domestic environment I see two options. First, there is the friend with a workshop so budget for a generous thank you present. Second: you have a vacuum cleaner? A little sawdust will not be an issue. Invest £10 in a jacksaw from B&Q. This will make perfect cuts in softwood and has a built in set square for marking out. 38x38mm timber for the legs can be fitted with adjustable feet intended for kitchen units. A simple ladder of 38x18mm supports the layout with triangles of scrap ply reinforcing the top of the legs. If the floor isn't too precious, a small screw through the plastic adjustable foot will prevent it wandering. My late father taught me this method of carpentry whilst I was still in primary school and before we had the power tools and workshops that so many of us take for granted. A variation on this theme has a second ladder at floor level instead of adjustable feet. This can support a piece of MDF as a raised shelf for stock boxes. The jacksaw is silent and Henry/Karcher/Dyson takes care of the rest. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted April 12, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 12, 2021 As a postscript to this, I eventually found a way to hold the existing cheap warped 2"x1" wood legs I have in a more square fashion (using NoMoreNails and a known near-flat patch of bathroom floor). This enabled me to use up a stock of wood I had, and still produce a slender, lightweight leg. I had to fiddle around with some hinges I had and also acquire some stainless steel repair plates to use as diagonal braces, but it's worked out pretty well all-in-all. See my S&P blog in my link for pictures of the layout boards on the legs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 A real alternative to nasty warped timber is to get a sheet of 18mm ply ripped into 2" strips. These can be doubled up and glued. By leaving carefully measured gaps you have created the space for joints. If slightly unsure of your measuring, use an expanding glue. The only carpentry tools are the above mentioned jack saw and a couple of G clamps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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