Cambrian Coast Express at Barmouth

[firstgreatwestern]

Hello RmWeb 

 

The Cambrian Coast Express was a titled train which ran from London Paddington to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. On the Pwllheli section, the express called at Barmouth, one of the largest stations on the line. As part of a personal project, I am researching Barmouth Railway Station. My focus is on the late 1950s, when the Cambrian Coast Express became a year-round operation. What was the configuration like when it reached Barmouth? I know the two trains joined at Shrewsbury, but how many coaches could you expect to see on a typical day on the Pwllheli section? Would there have been a buffet or restaurant car? Or was this put on at Shrewsbury? I assume that the motive power was a Manor, as the Kings and Castles were out of gauge. Also, did the day-to day services always wear headboards? 

 

This question is probably a bit too detailed, but I'm sure someone will enjoy answering it. How long would the express have stayed at Barmouth? Did the train take on water at the station, or was this unnecessary?

 

Thank you in advance 

 

FGW 

Edited June 10, 2020 by firstgreatwestern

[Marshall5]

Deleted

Edited June 13, 2020 by Marshall5

[mike morley]

In volume 2 of Rick Greens' Coast Lines of the Cambrian there is a June '56 picture of a Collett Goods on the express, complete with headboard, at Penhelig.  The angles are too tight for me to identify the first couple of carriages.  Most of the train is still in the tunnel.

[jjnewitt]

A quick google search brings up a previous topic on RMweb on this subject:

 

 

The portion for Pwllheli was BSK, SK, FK with an additional SK on Saturdays.

 

An RU was included in the train all the way to Aberystwyth (but not Pwllheli) until the early sixties. 

 

Not sure about being out of gauge but the main reason for not seeing Castles and Kings on the Cambrian was that they were far too heavy for the line. A Manor was as big as it got.

 

Justin

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

There is a section on "The Shrewsbury & Welshpool Railway" by Bob Yate (Lightmoor Press) about the CCE, though not specifically the Coast section. 

He says that after 1954 the Restaurant Car only went from Paddington to Wolverhampton - and on Saturdays at at least some periods it missed Shrewsbury station. And no photos on the Coast section. He states that in 1957 the normal load of the Coast section was 4.

I have read somewhere that at one time there was a one-off buffet car which worked to Pwllheli but I cannot now remember the source, and it may have been earlier than the period you are interested in.

Jonathan

[robertcwp]

Two views of the Pwllheli portion:

 

82000_Towyn_22-8-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

45XX_DoveyJct_1959 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Note that carriages were often added for local traffic along the coast.

[jointline]

The only time I travelled on this was later on in the 1960's,  from Euston by then.   Was going to Portmadoc,  but there were NO refreshment facilities on the train at all...... we had to dash out to a nearby cafe to grab whatever they had.

And they say they were the good old days!

[Poor Old Bruce]

The two portion actually separated at Machynlleth (Down) and combined at Dovey Junction (Up). I travelled on the train on Good Friday 1962 to Portmadoc (as it was then) with 7823 Hook Norton Manor from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth and 6395 onwards. We stopped at Moat Lane Jct to take a Mickey Mouse banker to Talerddig. The train included a coach which had one compartment converted to take a vending machine to provide refreshments. The return train on the following Monday had 82034 from Portmadoc to Dovey Jct with 6335 and 7823 thence to Shrewsbury.

[firstgreatwestern]

2 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

The two portion actually separated at Machynlleth (Down) and combined at Dovey Junction (Up). I travelled on the train on Good Friday 1962 to Portmadoc (as it was then) with 7823 Hook Norton Manor from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth and 6395 onwards. We stopped at Moat Lane Jct to take a Mickey Mouse banker to Talerddig. The train included a coach which had one compartment converted to take a vending machine to provide refreshments. The return train on the following Monday had 82034 from Portmadoc to Dovey Jct with 6335 and 7823 thence to Shrewsbury.

Very interesting tidbit about the vending machine. 

 

Thank you to everyone who has commented with memories and information. It really does mean a lot to me. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, firstgreatwestern said:

Very interesting tidbit about the vending machine. 

 

Thank you to everyone who has commented with memories and information. It really does mean a lot to me. 

The vending machine coach was of course included in a Bachmann 'Cambrian Coast Express' presentation pack a good while back (2006 I think!!!).  The vehicle was never sold separately so far as I'm aware, but the prototype vehicle, 25189 is reportedly in preservation hands but had long been converted to its original form by BR.  It was reportedly converted to the auto buffet in 1962 but I don't know how many seasons it managed on the CCE as I recall hearing somewhere along while back that it created far more problems than it solved.

[602Squadron]

1 hour ago, firstgreatwestern said:

Very interesting tidbit about the vending machine. 

 

 

That was the "AutoBuffet", converted from SK W25189 in 1962. One of the compartments in the centre of the coach was fitted with 9 slot machines (2 for soft drinks, 1 for cigarettes and 6 for sandwiches, confectionery and other food). The coach was finished in chocolate and cream to match the rest of the Cambrian set, and the only external changes were the blanking out of the compartment side window with a blue panel lettered "Autobuffet" and listing some of the products available beneath, and an "Autobuffet" sign in the corridor side window.

 

There is a another thread on the CCE here: BR 1958/9 Cambrian Coast Express Formation, By Adrock, February 23, 2015 in Modelling Questions, Help and Tips 

[Poor Old Bruce]

It should be noted that the Autobuffet only worked Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury and back.

[corneliuslundie]

"The train included a coach which had one compartment converted to take a vending machine to provide refreshments." That what had triggered my vague memory of reading about a buffet car, so no proper restaurant/buffet facilities beyond Wolverhampton at least some of the time, though from what has been suggested the restaurant car may at times have worked as far as Shrewsbury.

Jonathan

[Andy Kirkham]

To what extent was the Pwllheli portion properly an express? What stops did it make on the Coast line?

[keefer]

Auto-buffet: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/br/mk-1/sk/hA0ED0786

 

I'm sure there was another thread somewhere on here where it was discussed.

EDIT: Sorry, it was the one linked to earlier by jjnewitt

Edited June 14, 2020 by keefer

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

To what extent was the Pwllheli portion properly an express? What stops did it make on the Coast line?

Depends entirely on what lamps it carried and one of those posted by Robert Carroll vvery clearly shows it carrying a Class B 2 headlamp.  But that of course doesn't stop it being a named train or portion thereof.  But for example the 1959 Summer WTT shows it as Class A, but not a named train, with more intermediate stops SX north of Dovey Jcn than on a Saturday, including three 'request' stops.  There were a few halts the SX train was not booked to call at either booked or by request (in advance to the Station Master) but it called at all stations and some halts (e.g Penhelig) between Afon Wen and Dover Jcn although not as a named train at that time.

 

The cassification of the train basically reflected its relative importance by giving it preference over Class B trains - quite logical really fora. through train/coaches to Paddington.

[tanatvalley]

The WTT shows the train stopped for 5 minutes.

[MartinWales]

In 'Titled Trains of the Western',there is a shot of 5574 on 4 coaches south of Barmouth

[Martino]

This made me think.  I don’t want to go off topic, but I’ve worked out that as a 6 year old I travelled on the CCE from Paddington to Barmouth and return. I have vague memories of it.  My question is, how could I find out what locos operated the train on Saturday July 25 1959 northbound, and Saturday August 8 southbound?

[The Border Reiver]

While on a Railrover, I stopped off at Machynlleth to bunk the shed. My notes said that I then caught the Cambrian Coast Express to Aberystwyth (I could be wrong). Here is a photo of it arriving at Machynlleth station on the 15 August 1964 hauled by 7824 Iford Manor.

 

[Adrock]

On 11/06/2020 at 20:39, robertcwp said:

Two views of the Pwllheli portion:

 

82000_Towyn_22-8-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

45XX_DoveyJct_1959 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Note that carriages were often added for local traffic along the coast.

 

Fantastic pictures, as ever Robert. Assume the first picture shows the core Pwllheli chocolate and cream coaches from the set - ie BSK, SK, FK, then a Saturday only SK in maroon? (Although having checked the 22/08/61 was a Tuesday!)

 

And the second picture has the same three core set plus maroon SK as the last 4 coaches; and the first three are the Gresley coach that was often a through coach (was it to the North East?) and then a couple of other strengtheners? Hard to see what they are but one looks like a carime and cream mk1 not sure about the other. I assume these would have all stayed as part of the merged train which would have been double headed back to Shrewsbury. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Adrock

[robertcwp]

48 minutes ago, Adrock said:

 

Fantastic pictures, as ever Robert. Assume the first picture shows the core Pwllheli chocolate and cream coaches from the set - ie BSK, SK, FK, then a Saturday only SK in maroon? (Although having checked the 22/08/61 was a Tuesday!)

 

And the second picture has the same three core set plus maroon SK as the last 4 coaches; and the first three are the Gresley coach that was often a through coach (was it to the North East?) and then a couple of other strengtheners? Hard to see what they are but one looks like a carime and cream mk1 not sure about the other. I assume these would have all stayed as part of the merged train which would have been double headed back to Shrewsbury. 

In the Towyn photo, which is a poor quality slide, the rear carriage is a brake second, probably later Collett or Hawksworth, which I believe was for local traffic and was detached at Dovey Junction, where the up CCE portions combined.  The first three are BSK, SK, FK.

 

In the view of the train approaching Dovey Junction, the first carriage is an end-door Gresley, probably an SK, followed by an LMS period III SK and a Mark 1 CK in crimson and cream. The regular CCE carriages are followed by a maroon Mark 1 BSK. I didn't think that the other carriages worked through but they might have done if it was a Summer Saturday. Unfortunately, I don't have any carriage workings covering the line.

[Adrock]

I have had a go at re-creating these scenes – fairly accurate on the 3MT, but not quite there on the 45xx yet:

 

3MT – choc & cream mk1s: BSK, SK, FK – maroon Collett SK

 

 

4575 – maroon Collett SK – crimson & cream Collett CK – choc & cream mk1s: BSK, SK, FK – maroon MK1 SK

 

I also now have the ability to assemble two separate complete rakes of the 1958-61 and 62-63 “standard” core formations, based on your published notes from the carriage working diagrams and as evidenced by multiple photographs:

 

1958-1961:

Manor – all choc & cream MK1s: BSK, SK, FK, RU, FK, SK, BSK

 

1962 – 63:

Manor – mixed maroon and choc & cream MK1s: Auto-buffet, BSK, SK, CK, CK, SK, BSK

 

I have only shown them temporarily set up in my garage, the setting against whilst I am starting to seriously design my new layout. I am looking at a “system” based concept, with at least two scenes – one a scenic section possibly Pont Dollgoch; and Dovey Junction. My thinking is that I could show the down CCE running as two separate trains through the junction, going in different directions; and I could merge and shunt the Up working there for some added interest – before running through Pont Dollgoch.

 

Still at the early planning stage but I reckon I now have the majority of stock with some ~12 engines and 22 coaches plus numerous wagons to put on a convincing display.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Adrock

[Neil]

The book you want for CCE working is Stephen Austin's From the Footplate - Cambrian Coast Express. It describes train preparation and working of a summer Saturday train in 1957 from Paddington to Machynlleth and both portions leaving there for Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Twelve carriages strong from Paddington the first eight were split of at Machynlleth and disappeared with the train engines to Aberystwyth. The remaining four of the coast portion had a further four strengtheners dropped onto the front to give an eight carriage formation for the journey to Pwllheli. Water was taken on at Porthmadog rather than Barmouth.  Though this (I hope) gives the bare bones of the requested information I'd thoroughly recommend the book it's a most readable account of the work involved in delivering passengers from the smokey metropolis to the gorgeous beauty of Cardigan Bay. It's one of my favourites, one of the few really literate railway books.