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125_driver

Intercity western region mk2 sets

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Bit of a long shot but I'm trying to establish what would have worked the paddington to worcester services in the early 90s (I believe there were some diagrammed 47 and stock services in this period up until 1993). I know turbos, 150s and HSTs made up the majority, but I think there was at least one diagram (possibly Friday's and sundays only) that was a 47 and stock.

 

So would the stock have been a standard mk2 set from the pool used on general XC duties or would it have been a separate set used specifically for duties out of paddington. 

 

Just to clarify I am only interested in the period 1990 to 1994 as I know later GW had separate mk2 sets for the western. 

 

If anyone can help I'd be very grateful!

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Posted (edited)

Hi,

 

Looking like a bit of a long shot possibly...

 

01.jpg.bc3cde8db031ae89fde00d3ae65bbc86.jpg

 

So, for the period in the book above:

 

*  No Pad - Worcester services.  Two Up and Dn Pad - Hereford and one Pad - Great Malvern  only.

*  All IC Western services are now HSTs, with exception of:

     - Night Riviera

     - FO 1F54, 18:17 PAD-OXF which used the seated stock off the sleeper, then went back to OOC ECS.

 

*  Only other loco hauled services into PAD are:

    -  Thames Valley services, now all Vac with the air stock having gone up North

    -  IC XC services

 

02.jpg.07f5714469d6c6f1fe71bb6dbbe6c975.jpg

 

03.jpg.34f444bd4b3433e740bd7390377768a7.jpg

 

04.jpg.6242455e3c104a07e014d1b8dea99f2e.jpg

 

 

 

There's always rule 1 of course :D

 

Regards,

Paul

 

Edited by bigP
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Thanks for the reply . I am quite sure and have seen evidence that there was a Friday and Sunday workings in the period 92 to 93 I think, literally one way to Worcester on a Friday evening (1902ish iirc) and on a Sunday an out and back shrub hill trip early afternoonish. 

 

I have seen the loco diagrams for said workings in a book and I also managed to find a couple of photos of 47s working these trains, but in both case the rolling stock was more or less invisible in the picture. .......

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HI,

Afraid I have no books past '92.

It is quite possible, and perhaps probable, that BR withdrew a lot of the Loco Hauled services due to the Padd remodelling, only for them to be reinstated later due to customer complaints.  But, I have no books so that's just conjecture.

 

 

 

05.jpg.b71e7162a70d9fac4b35cbe3348fee00.jpg

 

This one appears to have the last of the interesting workings.  Plenty of Western Loco hauled services in it, usual places like Bristol, Swansea, Plymouth, Taunton, Penzance.

 

There are some unbalanced workings to Shrub Hill with no ECS, so presumably the ECS was from the Bristol/South Wales area and not OOC.

 

This WTT is like the above Station working, weekday Hereford and G.Malverns are HSTs

 

In addition there are:

 

Mon-Sat (until 29Sep)

-  1A29 0800 Worcester SH - Paddington 0946, but via Swindon not Oxford. 

      * Timed for Loco at 280T, but not marked as aircon.

      * There is no down working to balance this out.

 

- Saturdays (unt 29Sep)

   1A22 0655 Worcester S.H-Pad 0946, via Swindon

      * Timed for D280 - aircon

      * No Dn service on a Friday to balance that.

  

 

- Sundays (unt 30Sep)

      * 1B29 1340 Pad - Hereford  D350  Vac

      * 1B58 1820 Pad - Hereford  D350  Aircon   - no Up on a Mon from this, possibly goes ECS to WSH for 1A29?

      * 1A68  1612 Hereford - Pad  D350  Vac

      * 1A88  1827 Hereford - Pad  D350  Vac

 

 

Regards,

Paul

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Just found this - didn't realise I had it.

 

06.jpg.efde55c15bbe01bca501f00eae260262.jpg

 

07.jpg.d26f5369ac5c9e10d71f032e77a60d50.jpg

 

 

There is nothing L/H between Worcester and Pad at all for Sat-Sun.

 

Herefords are HSTs except

 

Sat  1B58 1820 Pad-Hereford,    works back as...

Sun  1A68 1612 Hereford - Pad,     then 5A68 ECS to OOC

 

Interesting formation though.  LL925; a mk1 IC set from Liverpool Edge Hill, which will probably be this then... https://flic.kr/p/28ioGzy

or OM290; an OOC aircon mk2 set.

 

Looks like L/H Pad - Hereford/Worcester start up again about Summer 1992.

 

 

Regards,

Paul

 

 

 

 

Edited by bigP
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Interesting stuff, thanks for the super detailed replies.

 

You mention OM290 , an old oak based mk2 air con set. Would you have any idea what its formation was or even how I could find out the vehicle identities it contained? 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, 125_driver said:

...  Would you have any idea what its formation was or even how I could find out the vehicle identities it contained? 

 

 

Sorry, no idea which particular vehicles would have been in it I'm afraid.

 

By 1992 IC sector would have been pushing standardisation pretty hard, and it's after my area of interest so don't have any hard details I'm afraid.  However,

 

For 1990:

OM2902D BSO/ x3 2D TSO/ 1 RMB/ 2D FK *     (* where 2D could be any mk2 aircon stock, though OOC didn't have any 2Fs at this time.)

At this time (1990) the TSOs at OOC would have very likely been 2D SOs, downgraded from 2D FOs, and probably a 2E BSO.

 

This was, RMB excluded, essentially the same setup as the Laira seated stock that went in the Sleeper, and during the day would go work something else. 

So, a bit of a mix around pool of like-for-like sets really.

 

A Platfrom 5 book for '92, '93, or '94 is possibly your best bet for guestimating what might be in the set.

 

Regards,

Paul

 



 

Edited by bigP
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Posted (edited)

You can tell it's Friday and I'm bored.....

Turns out I have a Platform 5 coaching stock book for 1992.  Nice surprise as I knew I'd lost my combined volume for '92.

 

So lets see what Old Oak has (supposedly as of 1st Jan 1992 then)....

 

 

mk1 RBR

1646, 1659, 1698  -  all air braked in ICHV     

 

mk1 FK

13236, 13237  -  vac braked in ICHL

 

2D FO

3178, 3190, 3192  -  ICHV.

 

2E FO

3203, 3254, 3255, 3271  -  IWRX

3226, 3230, 3268  -  IWRL

3227, 3231, 3237, 3263, 3264, 3265, 3270*, 3275  -  ICHV

3245, 3274  -  IXXZ

(* still showing as Blue & Grey)

 

2D FK

13567, 13579  -  IXXZ

13575  -  NWXX

13586, 13589, 13594  -  IWRL

 

2D TSO

5687(b/g), 5717(exec)  -  NWXX

 

2E TSO

5763, 5795 5810 5841 5846 5883  -  NWXX

 

2D SO (rebuilt from FO)

6200,  6213, 6226  -  IWRX

6206  -  ICHX

 

2D TSOT (conv from 2D TSO)

6605, 6614, 6619  -  NWXX

6609  -  IWRL

 

2D RMBT (conv from 2D TSO)

6660, 6662, 6665  -  IWRL

 

2D BSO

9481, 9492  -  IWRX

9494  -  IXXT

 

2D BFK

17141, 17153  -  ICHV

17142, 17154, 17161  -  IWRL

17148, 17163  -  NWXX

 

2E BSO

9496, 9502  -  NWXX

9498  -  IWRL

9501  -  IWRX

 

ICHL - Charter & Special Services on loan

ICHV - Charter & Special Services VIP pool

ICHX - Charter & Special Services

IWRL - IC Great Western - On Loan

IWRX - IC Great Western

IXXT - IC Awaiting transfer to new sector

IXXZ - Authorised for Withdrawn

NWXX - NSE West of England and North Downs

 

 

In addition Old Oak had the NSE mk1 and 2 stock of course.  Haven't bothered to list them too.

 

Liverpool Edge Hill has a lot of mk1 TSOs in the ICHD (Charter: non aircon, non refurbd),  ICHH (Charter: Held),  and ICHS (Chater: Steam Specials) pools, but nothing allocated to a general passenger operating sector.  Also some 2D BFKs in the ICHD pool, so this pic (https://flic.kr/p/28ioGz) will then be Liverpool based Charter stock working a Paddington - Hereford - Paddington trip.  The mad world of BR!

 

 

If the P5 is correct, and that can be a big if sometimes, that's a lot of air con mk2 stock in Intercity livery based at OOC for NSE workings on the 'West of England' sector (ie Waterloo - Exeter)!

So either a typo or an accountancy trick - who knows?  Still, certainly less L/H stock than they had just 2 years prior.

 

 

Regards,

Paul

 

 

 

Edited by bigP
RMB typo
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Also the same vehicles found on these services could also be found on loco hauled services to south west.

 

But they did appear to be mixed sets of WR stock with a 50 on the front. The one I am modelling has 2C BSO 2D BFK, 2D TSOT, a few 2E TSO a couple 2F FO.

 

However see this site, quite a few OWWR sets on it

 

http://www.hondawanderer.com/Class_50.htm

 

A quick lookshow that the following are very common

 

2C BSO

2E TSO

Also obvious are 2B TSO

 

Whatever you do you will have fun as in one set you can have 1 2BCDEF.

 

Was also one mainly 2B set

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bigP said:

mk1 RMB

1646, 1659, 1698  -  all air braked in ICHV 


for the record, these are RBRs not RMBs

 

I do have some recollection of a Sunday afternoon up working on the Cotswold line but perhaps a bit before your timeline. Can’t remember whether the outward train was Friday or Saturday but it was an OOC NSE Mk1 set spare at the weekend.

Edited by brushman47544
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Just to clarify something, am I right in thinking om290 is a diagram code as opposed to a set of coaching stock???

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Sorry I don't know, I was a spotter then but also spotted rolling stock, which is why I noticed that most WR aircon sets were comprised of the same lots of vehicles and could be anywhere in the region.

 

So a coach on a Paddington Penzance 12 coach train could be seen later on a Paddington Worcester short set.

 

2C BSOs also seen a lot, however to produce these sets you will have to carve up a lot of models. On one set the least work was on a 2D TSOT the most a 2D BFK or one of the 2E TSOs. Followed by the 2C BSO, I would suggest find one brand and convert everything from it, I used Airfix.

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And a further observation, according to the coaches listed above I don't see any sleeper coaches. I had assumed the western region sleeper sets where allocated to old oak, does this mean they were not??? Laira or long rock maybe?????

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OM had lost its allocation of IC day coach in 1993 to LA. Until 1988 WR sleepers were allocated to Willesden Brent (WB) and then to LA.

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7 hours ago, Bomag said:

OM had lost its allocation of IC day coach in 1993 to LA. Until 1988 WR sleepers were allocated to Willesden Brent (WB) and then to LA.

Interesting. Would Laira also have been responsible for any of the mk2 rakes that did the XC workings in this early 90s period also? 

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Cl 47 "Royal Worcester" arrives at Shrub Hill hauling the final loco hauled Paddington Hereford service n

 

Right found a good photo that illustrates what I'm after specifically . It is working a padd to Hereford service in 1993. The stock is clearly MK2s. 

Looking at the list kindly provided by bigp I'm not sure OC seemed to have enough mk2s allocated at this time to build a set like this.

Would this likely be set OM290? Or any other suggestions? 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, 125_driver said:

Just to clarify something, am I right in thinking om290 is a diagram code as opposed to a set of coaching stock???

 

 

No, it’s a set of coaching stock.

 

OM290 is Old Oak set 290.

LL925 is (Liverpool) Edge Hill set 925.

etc etc etc.

 

The stock set would then have been allocated to a turn/diagram.

 

Above you you can also see things like LA008, PM025. - these are HST sets, which had been fixed allocations of vehicles for a while. The P5 books often have the make up of HST sets listed.

 

The L/H stock however, would have started off as just a allocation of types in the set, eg TSO TSO BSK FO, without specific vehicles (ie number) allocated to each set. You can see the codes of the types allocated to the set given in the station workings...  3 AC21 AB21 etc etc.  

The actual individual vehicles in the set would have chopped and changed over time, due faults and maintenance etc.  Obviously someone somewhere kept track of which vehicles were in which set, but the allocation wasn’t necessarily permanent.

 

At some point these sets would have become permanently fixed with specific vehicles allocated to each set, and then maintenance spare sets allocated to the depot, themselves a fixed allocation of vehicles.  Plus some other spare vehicles.

 

BR did this for maintenance costs, amongst other reasons.  With certain maintenance being done based on time interval, others on mileage, vehicles were grouped together as close as possible in terms of exam dates.  Once formed, if one vehicle in the set was tech, the whole set was tech, and a maintenance spare set would have to go out.  

This meant:

  Sets were maintained as a group, each vehicle then obviously worked the same mileage and time between exams.

  Higher authorisation was needed to swap out a single vehicle in the set.

  This in effect saved time and money by no more endless shunting around of stock each night because one vehicle  in a set had a VIBT due or something.

 

Intercity West Coast went for this big time at the beginning of 1990.  Somewhere I’ve got a list of the make up of each west coast set when this was implemented, depot by depot, inc maintenance sets and spares.

 

No idea when IC Western adopted this principle however. Would love to know for definite, and to see the allocations, but think it is around 1991/2.  There was a lot of chop and range of LH stock between regions between May 90 and Summer 91, so would have been a nightmare if it was in effect on the Western at that time.

 

Paul

Edited by bigP
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1 hour ago, 125_driver said:

Cl 47 "Royal Worcester" arrives at Shrub Hill hauling the final loco hauled Paddington Hereford service n

 

Right found a good photo that illustrates what I'm after specifically . It is working a padd to Hereford service in 1993. The stock is clearly MK2s. 

Looking at the list kindly provided by bigp I'm not sure OC seemed to have enough mk2s allocated at this time to build a set like this.

Would this likely be set OM290? Or any other suggestions? 

 

Difficult to ID the stock

 

I think the first one is BSO second a 2E TSO then a 2D FO or FK

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3 hours ago, 125_driver said:

Cl 47 "Royal Worcester" arrives at Shrub Hill hauling the final loco hauled Paddington Hereford service n

 

Right found a good photo that illustrates what I'm after specifically . It is working a padd to Hereford service in 1993. The stock is clearly MK2s. 

Looking at the list kindly provided by bigp I'm not sure OC seemed to have enough mk2s allocated at this time to build a set like this.

Would this likely be set OM290? Or any other suggestions? 

 

Hi, that was actually a  Padd Worcester,  How do I know?, well, as well as the notation on Flickr site from the photographer stating that it was 47 821 working the last ever Padd / Worcester, I was actually on that train from Worcester to Moreton In Marsh.

To explain further, Me and my Bruv spent many happy hours chasing and Photting 47/8's on the OWWR in 91-93,  Amongst the many ICCX workings that were sent on that line on Sundays, our favourite was the Sunday Padd-Worcester, which we travelled on a few times from Moreton In Marsh to Worcester and Back, ( ISTR the Seconds were often downgraded Mk2D firsts).

 

Anyhow, the day that pic was taken, we knew it was the last advertised loco hauled Padd -Worcester, and, after photo'ing the usual ICCX stuff on the line, we set off to catch it  However, somehow we managed to mis-time it, and at Moreton to see the thing rolling in, with no time left for us to park the car, get tickets etc., Crestfallen wasn't in it!

We then tried to rescue things by hightailing off down the A44 to Worcester. Hence, I have a similar pic of that particular working  We did however at least get a ride on it from Worcester to Moreton, returning on a HST. It also sported a Cathedrals express headboard on it's way back to Padd.

 

Hope info of help

K

ps, IIRC, that working arrived at  Worcester at 5pm, then went onto the depot area to run round, and set off for Padd about 5 past 6. Also seem to remember it was marked in public Timetables as Sunday only

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You would think with the picture in question being the loco hauled finale on the cotswold line that somewhere the stock identities would be recorded.....???

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7 hours ago, 125_driver said:

Interesting. Would Laira also have been responsible for any of the mk2 rakes that did the XC workings in this early 90s period also? 

 

I this period XC Mk2 aircon were allocated to Glasgow (PC), Edinburgh (EC), Longsight  (MA), Wolverhampton (OY) and Derby (DY). WR would have serviced XC sets overnight but maintenance and higher exams were done by Midland and Scottish depots - they did the bulk of MK2 aircons at the time so it made sense to concentrate the work.

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Posted (edited)
On 13/06/2020 at 08:58, 125_driver said:

Cl 47 "Royal Worcester" arrives at Shrub Hill hauling the final loco hauled Paddington Hereford service n

 

Right found a good photo that illustrates what I'm after specifically . It is working a padd to Hereford service in 1993. The stock is clearly MK2s. 

Looking at the list kindly provided by bigp I'm not sure OC seemed to have enough mk2s allocated at this time to build a set like this.

Would this likely be set OM290? Or any other suggestions? 

 

 

Interesting.  3rd coach is TSO downgraded from a FO.  7 large windows but no yellow stripe. 

Could be a 2D, but there were also 2F versions as well (but not allocated to the Western), so can't tell if it is a 2D or 2F version.

 

So, after a bit of sorting and tidying at the weekend, found my P5 combined book from 1992 - yippee.  Also found I have '93, '94, and '95 too!  Bonus.

 

So a quick peruse of the '93 book (supposedly correct as of Jan 1st), shows a lot of changes for Old Oak/Western.

 

mk1 RBR

1646  -  IXXZ
1653, 1659, 1698  -  ICHV 

 

2E FO (AD1E)

3227, 3231, 3234*, 3237, 3247*, 3250*, 3263, 3265, 3270, 3272* 3275  -  ICHV

* new to pool since '92

 

2E FO - TROLLEY (AG1E)   

(36 seats iso. 42, so presumably one whole row gone for trolley storage)

3520 (3253),  3521 (3271),  3522 (3236)  -  IWRX
 

2D TSO(SO)  -  rebuilt from FO with 2+2 seating

6200, 6206*, 6213, 6226  -  IWRX

* was ICHX in '92

 

2D BSO

9486*, 9492, 9494*  -  IWRX

* new to pool

 

2E BSO

9501  -  IWRX

 

2D BFK

17141, 17153  -  ICHV

 

Everything else is either not even listed anymore (so presumably scrapped) or moved to another depot and in service or stored.

 

Ignoring the ICHV charter pool that leaves Old oak with the following LH stock for standard ops:

x3  2E FO - TROLLEY (AG1E)   

x4 2D TSO(SO) - from FO so 7 large windows

x3 2D BSO

x1 2E BSO


That's not even one normal full set.  LA shows as having mk3 SLEPs but no seated stock, and OM no SLEPs, so these must be the sleeper 'seated' stock.  Presumably formation for that would have been first with trolley, two 2nds and one brake second.

 

So, that 47 at Worcester doesn't have OM stock then.  But it does have a 2D/F TSO(SO) in it.

'93 P5 shows that 2D 'SO's were also at Bounds Green for Charter (no good to us), Wembley for IC WC, and Derby for IC XC.

It also shows the 2F SOs all allocated to Norwich for the East Anglian IC services.

 

Assuming the P5 '93 is correct, and that pic is from 1993, then the 3rd vehicle is a 2D TSO(SO) from Derby stock.

At the time P5 is showing them also having 2D, 2E and 2F BSOs and TSOs, as well as 2D RMBTs and 3 mk1 RMBs, all across the ICCL, ICCR and ICCX pools.

 

 

So, by 1993 I'm guessing that the loco hauled Paddington - Worcester was covered by XC stock.  It must have worked into Padd from elsewhere in the country, did a rotation to Worcester, then went back up North on another XC working.

 

Looks like you're best picking up a Platform 5 from '92 or '93, and picking out some stock numbers based on what's allocated to Derby.

 

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

 

Edited by bigP
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