Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

I had no idea where to place this questions as it relates to continental wagons operating in the UK, but here goes!

I model SR 1938 - 1948 and I am very keen at some point to develop a reasonable representation of a continental freight train in 4mm.

I have strong memories of seeing these passing through both Petts Wood and Bromley South stations as well as passing lots of the stock at the Hither Green Continental Freight Depot - at this time (the '60's) they were largely hauled by electric locos.

My grandfather was also in the Royal Engineers during WW1 and spent a lot of time at Richborough Port, and so around 10 years ago I did a lot of research at the National Archives on Richborough, and on the terminals at Southampton, Dover & Harwich, the ferries themeselves, and of course the various vans and wagons.

I currently run a ferry van train on my layout but it is made up entirely of HO scale vehicles and so although I allow it to run through, it would not look good drawn up alongside anything else on the layout!

There is nothing RTR that I can see that is suitable for my purpose, and I also looked on Shapeways but cannot see that anyone has created a relevant body shell (please tell me if I have missed something!).

I queried both "ferry vans" and "continental freight" on here and came up with literally hundreds of links but only very few (linked below) really seem to get into modelling the wagons, and some of these cover what is the wrong era for me.

The experts clearly seem to be @jonhall and @jwealleans but there may well be others who have experimented with continental freight in 4mm - so my question is, where can I go to acquire or build suitable wagons for such a train in the era that I model?

All help appreciated!

Tony

 

Links to related threads:

 

 

 

Edited by Tony Teague
Edited to include a link to a further RMWeb thread on a related topic
  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The principal thread on this disappeared when the forum archive was taken down.  That listed out a great many sources of information and drawings.

 

Essentially you're looking at scratchbuilding if you want genuinely 4mm versions of anything.  The difference in scale between HO wagons and 4mm is more significant than you'd think, as I believe you've worked out.   Here's a German Saarbrucken van in HO with my 4mm scratchbuild of the same van.

 

spacer.png

 

That said, these were the vehicles which launched me into scratchbuilding and it's really nothing to be intimidated by.  There are plans  and drawings available for all kinds of vehicles.  These are the ones I managed while I was still producing them:

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

gvan2-zps9dd93aa8.jpg

 

fasus.jpg

 

100-6082-zps4bc4f22d.jpg

 

There are other options which don't involve building completely from scratch; the Ratio SR ferry van (although the brakes need replacing); these are from Jon Hall (if he still has any):

 

belg-vans-thurston-zps29fc8a35.jpg

 

These are a resin cast but they're supplied in 1970s condition and need backdating for the 1950s.  Not overly onerous but a bit of carving and reinstatemetn of detail is needed.

 

There are also these:

 

rocovent_zps8085a9df.jpg

 

Top here is a ROCO Rivarossi Italian ventilated van, balanced on top of a scratchbuilt refrigerated one.  Because ROCO used a bizarre scale, this van is something like scale width and 2mm too short for 1:76, or scale length and 2mm too narrow.  I forget which .   The underframe would need replacing and new lettering producing but it's not a huge task.  I have a few salted away with just that in mind.  These were very common between Dover and south London on fruit and vegetable traffic.  You can pick them up from dealers at shows fairly frequently for not much.

 

In summary, there's nothing off the shelf that I'm aware of but depending how much effort you want to put in you can put together a fairly representative group of wagons.   Have a look at what John Isherwood has done with tankers as well, that's something I haven't even tackled.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by jwealleans
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 2
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There's some really lovely work there, Jonathan. Anyone looking for photos could do worse than look at the two 'Non Pool' volumes by David Larkin; he's got quite a selection of photos. I've done some of the more modern designs (post 1960 designs with 8 metre wheelbase.). They're almost entirely scratch built, with the exception of the cast buffers (AME, then S-Kits) and the axleguard/ suspension (from Hornby air-braked wagons I picked up for a song)

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

The principal thread on this disappeared when the forum archive was taken down.  That listed out a great many sources of information and drawings.

 

Essentially you're looking at scratchbuilding if you want genuinely 4mm versions of anything.  The difference in scale between HO wagons and 4mm is more significant than you'd think, as I believe you've worked out.   Here's a German Saarbrucken van in HO with my 4mm scratchbuild of the same van.

 

That said, these were the vehicles which launched me into scratchbuilding and it's really nothing to be intimidated by.  There are plans  and drawings available for all kinds of vehicles.  These are the ones I managed while I was still producing them:

 

There are other options which don't involve building completely from scratch; the Ratio SR ferry van (although the brakes need replacing); these are from Jon Hall (if he still has any):

 

These are a resin cast but they're supplied in 1970s condition and need backdating for the 1950s.  Not overly onerous but a bit of carving and reinstatemetn of detail is needed.

 

There are also these:

 

Top here is a ROCO Italian ventilated van, balanced on top of a scratchbuilt refrigerated one.  Because ROCO used a bizarre scale, this van is something like scale width and 2mm too short for 1:76, or scale length and 2mm too narrow.  I forget which .   The underframe would need replacing and new lettering producing but it's not a huge task.  I have a few salted away with just that in mind.  These were very common between Dover and south London on fruit and vegetable traffic.  You can pick them up from dealers at shows fairly frequently for not much.

 

In summary, there's nothing off the shelf that I'm aware of but depending how much effort you want to put in you can put together a fairly representative group of wagons.   Have a look at what John Isherwood has done with tankers as well, that's something I haven't even tackled.

 

 

Jonathan thanks, thats really helpful, and at least I was right in thinking that there is not much available!

Looking at what both you & Jon have done, it seems that one of the squarer models with a pointy roof is more likely to be a good place to start, working in sheet styrene.

Alternately, I could look at whether anyone is prepared to draw some etches of 3D prints, but in either case, can I ask where you have sourced your various transfers, which look very impressive?

Tony

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

There's some really lovely work there, Jonathan. Anyone looking for photos could do worse than look at the two 'Non Pool' volumes by David Larkin; he's got quite a selection of photos. I've done some of the more modern designs (post 1960 designs with 8 metre wheelbase.). They're almost entirely scratch built, with the exception of the cast buffers (AME, then S-Kits) and the axleguard/ suspension (from Hornby air-braked wagons I picked up for a song)

 

Thanks; I have the David Larkin books and he certainly includes a few examples that were built in my era and were still running later.

I also have copies of a series of articles written by Paul Bartlett for HMRS on the development of Covered Merchandise Wagons on BR, one of which focuses on the influence of ferry vans.

 

Tony

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

 

There are other options which don't involve building completely from scratch; the Ratio SR ferry van (although the brakes need replacing); these are from Jon Hall (if he still has any):

 

belg-vans-thurston-zps29fc8a35.jpg

 

These are a resin cast but they're supplied in 1970s condition and need backdating for the 1950s.  Not overly onerous but a bit of carving and reinstatemetn of detail is needed.

 

There are also these:

 

rocovent_zps8085a9df.jpg

 

Top here is a ROCO Italian ventilated van, balanced on top of a scratchbuilt refrigerated one.  Because ROCO used a bizarre scale, this van is something like scale width and 2mm too short for 1:76, or scale length and 2mm too narrow.  I forget which .   The underframe would need replacing and new lettering producing but it's not a huge task.  I have a few salted away with just that in mind.  These were very common between Dover and south London on fruit and vegetable traffic.  You can pick them up from dealers at shows fairly frequently for not much.

 

 

 

 

Being called Jonathan isn't a requirement to have an interest in ferry vans, but apparently it helps...

 

I do have a few of the resin Belgium vans somewhere, but I don't recall where, I'm much embarrassed that I can turn out a complete STEF van in a fortnight, yet my own resin vans are still unfinished all these years later. Also unfinished is the Belgian refrigerated van, and the transfesa van.

 

I have lots of the etched 'pressed' ventilators I did for my DB vans, but probably too late for Tony.

 

I also did two batches of Cargowaggon twin vans (using CMA to do the casting), but they would be much too modern for Tony, and somewhere there is 80% of a master for a single...

 

JonathanW - I think you might mean Rivarossi not Roco https://www.gebrauchtemodellbahnen.ch/wagen-h0/güterwagen-h0/rivarossi/

 

Jon

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
22 minutes ago, jonhall said:

Being called Jonathan isn't a requirement to have an interest in ferry vans, but apparently it helps...

I do have a few of the resin Belgium vans somewhere, but I don't recall where, I'm much embarrassed that I can turn out a complete STEF van in a fortnight, yet my own resin vans are still unfinished all these years later. Also unfinished is the Belgian refrigerated van, and the transfesa van.

I have lots of the etched 'pressed' ventilators I did for my DB vans, but probably too late for Tony.

I also did two batches of Cargowaggon twin vans (using CMA to do the casting), but they would be much too modern for Tony, and somewhere there is 80% of a master for a single...

JonathanW - I think you might mean Rivarossi not Roco https://www.gebrauchtemodellbahnen.ch/wagen-h0/güterwagen-h0/rivarossi/

Jon

 

Jon

Thanks; again, this is very helpful - I'm not a Jonathan, but my first name is actually John, so maybe that counts?

If the resin vans that you have somewhere are 'spare', then should you locate them, I'd be very keen to take them off your hands for an agreed sum - please PM me if so.

I didn't mention above by I also have three 7mm scale drawings which are quite detailed, of a Soc Belge refrigerator van (No.1055022), and two different FS Italia vans which maybe of interest to you or to Jonathan; I won't put them on here for copyright reasons but could send an image if either is interested.

Tony

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon, you're quite right about the van - Rivarossi, item 2010.  The first one I Googled is on Ebay for £25, which is ridiculous.

 

Transfers are a mixture - those which are not white I did myself, those which are (and the Italian ones) I had done by John Peck at Precision Decals.   I think he still offers the German and Italian ones in his range.  I sometimes wonder how many he sells.  There's a great deal of very helpful advice on his website about producing your own artwork and his printing costs are very reasonable.  I've had some more transfers (not continental) from him just this week.

 

Tony, I'm always happy to see drawings of anything in this line, you can never have too much information and it's all meant to be shared.  Speaking of which I'd be very remiss not to mention the help I've had from Tim Hills over the years (I'm not sure he posts on here) as well as the German Railways Society and SNCF Society, especially the late Andy Hart who produced most of the buffers I used on the models.   The Italian Railway Society, on the other hand, have never responded to any of my questions.

 

If you go back to the very first page of my workbench thread you can see the start of the ferry van builds getting on for 3/4 of the way down the page. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

Jonathan

Thanks, I will take a look at Precision Decals.

I have revisited the first (extremely long!) page of your workbench thread and will spend some further time there; it certainly looks like scratchbuilding is going to be the only way for many of these wagons.

Did you use the drawings from Barrowmore MRG or something else?

I will PM both you and Jon with images of the three drawings that I have; they were given to me by Mike Radford (Marc Models / Electrifying Trains) some time ago.

It was Mike who produced transfers for this unlikely coal wagon (which I then built using Parkside RCH 7-planks):

 

SJPP124001802170124.jpg.b90e2d0906c8eed52358d401f4b47a57.jpg

 

It was also then produced by Bachmann as a Collectors Club Special); I can't imagine that the prototypes would have stayed white for too long!

 

Tony

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
42 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I suspect the open wagon would have been based on the SR 8-plank open, the type that had 'cupboard-style' top doors. Cambrian do a kit.

 

I don't think so; see picture below:

(this is probably copyright, but I have no idea who owns it, or who to credit, as the image was passed to me - so I apologise in advance and will remove if requested!):

 

SJPimg32702170124.jpg.b3b851443dc087dcc02695bb454c1c4b.jpg

 

These were built for the LNER Harwich service rather than for the SR Dover route and are probably an anomaly on my layout - but I like them!

Tony

 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

The closest I found to the 7 plank open was Slaters and I had to make some alterations to that.  I'd have really liked to do one with a brakeman's platform, but at the time I didn't have a photo of one and now I do it's not in this country so I have no evidence they were ever returned to this country after the war.  This is mine, with home made transfers:

 

rod_open_zps9bff462f.jpg

 

I was told by a Belgian correspondent that they were mainly used for marble traffic from north Italy (marble being very popular for shop fronts as well as memorial stones at that time) and went out of use around 1930.

 

The red/black lettering question has still not been definitively settled either way although I'd probably lean to red were I to make this over again.

  • Like 5
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd guess they were intended for bulk/aggregate traffic for the army originally, then once the Belgians acquired them presumably they just went into domestic traffic.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
32 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I'd guess they were intended for bulk/aggregate traffic for the army originally, then once the Belgians acquired them presumably they just went into domestic traffic.

The sides look too high for most types of aggregate traffic.  I would think 'general freight' which covers all sorts of things and so used because they were available and suitable for international use.  The marble traffic makes sense but it would be a load quite a way down below the raves due to its weight and density but they were clearly rated for a 12 tonne load although I can't read the word below 'chargement' which might have a bearing on how they were to be loaded. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

the word below 'chargement' which might have a bearing on how they were to be loaded. 

 

Is it perhaps the Flemish equivalent of 'chargement'?  I can't read it either but it looks kinda Dutch!

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

From close examination of the picture and of a matching drawing that I have, I believe the word is "draagvermogen" which the interweb tells me is dutch for "loading capacity"!

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think general merchandise is most likely, unless it was for a specific material that was particularly friable, so it would break up badly if repeatedly handled, or something relatively unusual/high-ish value which shouldn't be contaminated, in which case I'd expect a painted restriction on the wagon.

 

Jon

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold
54 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

From close examination of the picture and of a matching drawing that I have, I believe the word is "draagvermogen" which the interweb tells me is dutch for "loading capacity"!

The official railway industry (UIC)translation of draagvermogen is 'supporting strength' -  as in supporting strength of a building (but that is the translation for Dutch Flemish and it might be, or have been,.  different for Belgian Flemish however the UIC lexicon does not distinguish between the two.  The direct Dutch equivalent of 'chargement' when applied to a wagon's maximum permissible load is  'tolaatbare belading' (again Dutch Flemish).  However the direct translation of French railway unqualified use of 'Chargement into Dutch Flemish railway use is 'lading'.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

Well what a wonderful place RMWeb is!

 

I only started this thread on Friday afternoon, and this morning the postman delivered two resin bodies from Jon Hall, plus some decals from Precision Decals following Jonathan Weallans' suggestion!

 

SJPP616002202200616.jpg.0f13fabcd59635ecf900e37941fa5c64.jpg

 

Now it is fair to say that the decals don't go with these particular bodies,  but who am I to complain!

 

I now have at least three ferry van projects to go at (after a bit more research, especially on 'undergubbins') - good job I've nothing else on. :rolleyes:

 

Incidentally, to save Jon Hall being inundated, I have to say that he tells me that these were his last two bodies in stock, although I have of course said that if he chooses to run off any more, I am very keen!

 

Tony

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I'd expect the brake layout to look a lot like this - I'm not sure how the lever handbrake would interface - I assume a gearbox of some sort - I 'l have a look at my photos from the re-sprung van when I get home in a couple of days time.

 

Jon

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

Jon

 

Many thanks - I have been out of action for a few days but I remain keenly interested in anything on these vans!

Tony

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

Turned out that I was out of action for rather longer than I thought, and then followed a period when my 'modelling mojo' had gone completely AWOL, however, it's now perhaps time to get back to this topic which continues to intrigue me.

 

There are clearly multiple projects that one could look at, but I have listed what are perhaps the most obvious ones for me, given the research and materials that I have available so far:

  1. To build some of the Ratio SR 10T Dover Ferry vans for which I have kits in stock, decals included. Jon W. has pointed out that the brakes need modification, something that I don't think I was aware of when I built just one of these a few years ago!

SJPP713004902190713-2.jpg.6609a5fd01e9e2b72a1bed0e9647ac06.jpg

 

    2. To modify the Rivarossi model 2010 FS Italia ventilated fruit van as suggested by Jon W., of which I have at least one available; I have also sourced some images of the real thing. The biggest issue here will be getting some decals made up, plus the undergubbins needs some detailing.

 

    3. To modify and complete the build of the resin castings kindly supplied by Jon H. for the Soc Belge van; again I have an image of the real thing and in this case some backdating of the casting will be required, plus decals and undergubbins in order to produce something resembling what Jon W. showed above:

image.png.279a29b563e423c053213c01e315b679.png

 

    4. I have obtained two sets of decals from Precision Decals for a FS Italia Provisions van and for a German van; I have Jon W.'s pictures of his completed model and have also got a good drawing for the Italian van which might be a good place to start in terms of scratchbuilding as the vehicle is quite square and 'boxy'.

 

Beyond this I have good drawings for a couple more vans, plus images of a number of originals and the inspiration of the other threads linked in my original post - so I thin it is probably time to just knuckle down and get on with it! - Now where was that mojo??????

 

Tony

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Your period is a problem. A lot of this appears a bit more modern. The ferries didn't operate for most of the period you mention for obvious reasons! This history https://doverhistorian.com/2013/10/20/train-ferry-dock-and-train-ferries/ suggests that the freight service only restarted a fortnight before nationalisation. 

 

When the NRM study centre re-opens (which isn't listed as happening in the re-opening info for next week) then they have a SR diagram book for the ferry wagons supplied by the various companies on the Continent which can be requested - and presumably these days photographed for personal use unlike when I looked through it. 

 

Paul 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.