RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 29, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2020 1 hour ago, hmrspaul said: Your period is a problem. A lot of this appears a bit more modern. The ferries didn't operate for most of the period you mention for obvious reasons! This history https://doverhistorian.com/2013/10/20/train-ferry-dock-and-train-ferries/ suggests that the freight service only restarted a fortnight before nationalisation. When the NRM study centre re-opens (which isn't listed as happening in the re-opening info for next week) then they have a SR diagram book for the ferry wagons supplied by the various companies on the Continent which can be requested - and presumably these days photographed for personal use unlike when I looked through it. Paul Paul Thanks; I appreciate what you are saying and certainly, because the train ferries operated at both ends of the 1938 - 1948 period that I model, getting precise information about which wagons ran and what they looked like may be diffcult. Nevertheless the image that I have of the Belgian van for example is dated 1947, whilst the SR 10T vans were available from the 1936 inauguration, and so there are some things about which I can be reasonably confident. The SR diagram book could be interesting ; I have seen the BR versions that are on the Barrowmore website and of course, many of the vehicles shown have pre-BR origins, all of which helps. Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 (edited) Not sure if this is of any interest, I have two books of wagon diagrams that do not seem to appear on the Barrowmoor website, they are marked as 'SFV' & 'C' Vehicles, the latter contains diagram numbers which commence with C (presumably for Continental). The oldest diagrams appear to date from around 1950, going by the diagram revision dates, and so may perhaps just be BR copies of the SR Diagrams although as someone has kindly amended the books over time they also contain later builds prior to the introduction of the UIC 12 digit numbers. Just by way of an example diagram C.5005 shows a Belgian 2-axle van, Nos. 209216, 209219 & 209223. Edited July 31, 2020 by SED Freightman Diagram book titles revised after recovering them from store. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 30, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, SED Freightman said: Not sure if this is of any interest, I have two books of wagon diagrams that do not seem to appear on the Barrowmoor website, they are marked as 'C' Vehicles and contain diagram numbers which commence with C (presumably for Continental). The oldest diagrams appear to date from around 1950, going by the diagram revision dates, and so may perhaps just be BR copies of the SR Diagrams although as someone has kindly amended the books over time they also contain later builds prior to the introduction of the UIC 12 digit numbers. Just by way of an example diagram C.5005 shows a Belgian 2-axle van, Nos. 209216, 209219 & 209223. Yes, could be very much of interest, are they copyable or available in any way? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 Tony, Very happy to try copying a few, do you have any particular wagon type in mind ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Here are four diagrams which may be of interest. Unfortunately my scanner is not wide enough to accommodate the whole diagram page so I have missed off the left hand side, the only detail missing is the word 'RESTRICTIONS' in the top left corner. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 That's the British-built ex-ROD 20T van illustrated on the first page. There seem to have been a number of variants, including end doors, but I've only ever seen photographs of the ones with the brake hutch or the van with no brake platform of any kind. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 31, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2020 59 minutes ago, SED Freightman said: Here are four diagrams which may be of interest. Unfortunately my scanner is not wide enough to accommodate the whole diagram page so I have missed off the left hand side, the only detail missing is the word 'RESTRICTIONS' in the top left corner. Thanks SED Freightman the diagrams look useful. Is it possible to copy the front page &/ or the index so that I understand what we are looking at and what else it contains? Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted July 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2020 Not sure if you are aware of these French wagons - just SNCF for your period but perhaps still labelled PLM. https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co206023/chemins-de-fer-de-paris-a-lyon-et-a-la-mediterranee-plm-train-ferry-van-1935-railway-wagon Used for delivery of perishable fruit and veg from the South of France to the UK. IIRC the NRM has an example. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 31, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2020 21 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said: Not sure if you are aware of these French wagons - just SNCF for your period but perhaps still labelled PLM. https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co206023/chemins-de-fer-de-paris-a-lyon-et-a-la-mediterranee-plm-train-ferry-van-1935-railway-wagon Used for delivery of perishable fruit and veg from the South of France to the UK. IIRC the NRM has an example. Andy I wasn't, so thank you - every bit helps! Best wishes Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 These Diagram Books may also be if interest:- http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_01_Issue.pdf http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_02_Issue.pdf http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_03_Issue.pdf http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFerryVehiclesIssue.pdf Whilst some of the vehicles shown are relatively modern, there is some pretty antedeluvian stuff as well. The fourth link has some very interesting stuff, along with annotations about routeing restrictions. I especially like the Hungarian bogie fruit van, expressly forbidden to be sent up the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line. I can't imagine any reason for one to be so routed. 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 31, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2020 Thanks! Perhaps in that part of Wales they had a weakness for a particular kind of Hungarian fruit - made worse through it being forbidden! I have heard lots of stories of various of these vans cropping up all over the UK - van loads of Lambretta's to Wimbledon for example; the traffic flows are as interesting as the vans themselves. Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 41 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said: Used for delivery of perishable fruit and veg from the South of France to the UK. IIRC the NRM has an example. It does. Beware of the livery, though; Brian may remember that someone posted a photo of it on a French wagon forum and they all made fun of the colour. They reckoned the apprentices at Mulhouse had popped round to Bricomarche and bought the first brown paint they found. I built two - one finished PLM red, one SNCF brown. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 31, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2020 Presumably Jon, they are scratch built in plasticard? I assume they are the same length and the image is just an optical delusion! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Fat Controller said: I especially like the Hungarian bogie fruit van, expressly forbidden to be sent up the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line. I can't imagine any reason for one to be so routed. Everything seems to have been restricted in that line, although I do slightly wonder about the likelihood of anyone wanting to send it there... the other line very often featuring in a painted restriction was the Canterbury an Whitstable, although again I'm not sure if there would have been much pent up demand. The Hungarian van is one of my faves too - i have a few photo's and a drawing that might be good enough to work up an etch for. There were several interesting Hungarian refrigerator/ed vans, and these were regularly photographed in Hampton, apparently in conjunction with horse meat for dog food. there were also a handful registered by Bhev, who operated (still do) a tramway in Budapest - its a bit like London United Trams having some ferry vans! Jon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 31, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 hours ago, jonhall said: The Hungarian van is one of my faves too - i have a few photo's and a drawing that might be good enough to work up an etch for. There were several interesting Hungarian refrigerator/ed vans, and these were regularly photographed in Hampton, apparently in conjunction with horse meat for dog food. there were also a handful registered by Bhev, who operated (still do) a tramway in Budapest - its a bit like London United Trams having some ferry vans! Jon As with everything related to this topic Jon, I'd certainly be up for an etch or two of this prototype! Tony 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted July 31, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 hours ago, jonhall said: ... the other line very often featuring in a painted restriction was the Canterbury an Whitstable, although again I'm not sure if there would have been much pent up demand. Jon Remember that in the day train ferries ran from Richborough. A delivery to Whitstable would then logically run via Minster to Canterbury and thence to Whitstable - except that most wagons would be out of gauge for this last leg. Hence the warning/prohibition notice. OK I cannot think of a single reason why a wagon would need to go from Richborough to Whitstable, but I can think of a good reason why perhaps the reverse journey might be of interest given that Whitstable oysters were thought to be some of the best and might just have been exported via Richborough. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 8 hours ago, Andy Hayter said: Remember that in the day train ferries ran from Richborough. Except that the Richborough ferry service ended in 1919 and the linkspan was then moved to Harwich. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 On 31/07/2020 at 15:15, Tony Teague said: Thanks SED Freightman the diagrams look useful. Is it possible to copy the front page &/ or the index so that I understand what we are looking at and what else it contains? Tony Tony, as requested. Couple of points to note now that I have had a more careful look at the document. Firstly it is an office copy of the official diagram book which had been kept updated until superceeded, therefore some of the pages / diagrams are missing, either due to them being withdrawn or possibly they depicted vehicle types that were of no interest to the books owner. Secondly, I have scanned the handwritten cover for completeness and all the initial pages as they contain operating information that may be of interest, the detailed index pages are to follow. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted August 1, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, SED Freightman said: Tony, as requested. Couple of points to note now that I have had a more careful look at the document. Firstly it is an office copy of the official diagram book which had been kept updated until superceeded, therefore some of the pages / diagrams are missing, either due to them being withdrawn or possibly they depicted vehicle types that were of no interest to the books owner. Secondly, I have scanned the handwritten cover for completeness and all the initial pages as they contain operating information that may be of interest, the detailed index pages are to follow. That's very helpful and I certainly haven't seen this before; thank you! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Here is the first batch of index pages for Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. Note that some pages are missing, presumably destroyed as the book was updated. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted August 2, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 2, 2020 1 hour ago, SED Freightman said: Here is the first batch of index pages for Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. Note that some pages are missing, presumably destroyed as the book was updated. Others may have seen these, but I certainly haven't - most grateful. I will give these pages some attention over the next few days. Best wishes Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 10 hours ago, SED Freightman said: Here is the first batch of index pages for Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. Note that some pages are missing, presumably destroyed as the book was updated. I think most of the gaps in that index are PO tank wagons, and that your book is the 'administration owned' fleet. The other thing about all diagram books (not just the ferry) is that most copies are not complete, the local copies only held wagons that the end user was likely to need to know about, so if you were in a steel town you had a pretty good idea about flat wagons, but the perishables didn't appear. In the case of the ferry fleet there was an added variable - Harwich or Dover, I suspect when the later SFVxxx and SFV6xxx books were in use most stations only dispatched to one or the other (Harwich for Northern Europe and Dover for the South), so only got part books. There were quite strict rules about getting wagons back to their home nations, if you had a empty and a back load to a different country, it could be only sent to one that was 'on the way' or where its new journey took it through the country of origin, I believe BR paid the equivalent of demurage from the moment the ferry docked in the uk, so it was very concerned about returning wagons. jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, jonhall said: There were quite strict rules about getting wagons back to their home nations, if you had a empty and a back load to a different country, it could be only sent to one that was 'on the way' or where its new journey took it through the country of origin, I believe BR paid the equivalent of demurage from the moment the ferry docked in the uk, so it was very concerned about returning wagons. Quite correct, Jon, but for some of its existence BR maintained a pool of empty Continental wagons, despite the demurrage, for export traffic. I've never seen precise information about where or how many, but several writers mention that it existed. Edited August 3, 2020 by jwealleans 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 59 minutes ago, jwealleans said: Quite correct, Jon, but for some of its existence BR maintained a pool of empty Continental wagons, despite the demurrage, for export traffic. I've never seen precise information about where or how many, but several writers mention that it existed. In later years, BR would often send empty ferry-vans to Cornwall, as they were virtually guaranteed a back-load of bagged china clay. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SED Freightman Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Here is the second (and final) batch of index pages for the Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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