Pre-nationalisation Ferry Vans / Continental Freight

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

Your period is a problem. A lot of this appears a bit more modern. The ferries didn't operate for most of the period you mention for obvious reasons! This history https://doverhistorian.com/2013/10/20/train-ferry-dock-and-train-ferries/ suggests that the freight service only restarted a fortnight before nationalisation. 

 

When the NRM study centre re-opens (which isn't listed as happening in the re-opening info for next week) then they have a SR diagram book for the ferry wagons supplied by the various companies on the Continent which can be requested - and presumably these days photographed for personal use unlike when I looked through it. 

 

Paul 

 

 

 

Paul

Thanks; I appreciate what you are saying and certainly, because the train ferries operated at both ends of the 1938 - 1948 period that I model, getting precise information about which wagons ran and what they looked like may be diffcult.

Nevertheless the image that I have of the Belgian van for example is dated 1947, whilst the SR 10T vans were available from the 1936 inauguration, and so there are some things about which I can be reasonably confident.

The SR diagram book could be interesting ; I have seen the BR versions that are on the Barrowmore website and of course, many of the vehicles shown have pre-BR origins, all of which helps.

Tony

 

[SED Freightman]

Not sure if this is of any interest, I have two books of wagon diagrams that do not seem to appear on the Barrowmoor website, they are marked as 'SFV' & 'C' Vehicles, the latter contains diagram numbers which commence with C (presumably for Continental). The oldest diagrams appear to date from around 1950, going by the diagram revision dates, and so may perhaps just be BR copies of the SR Diagrams although as someone has kindly amended the books over time they also contain later builds prior to the introduction of the UIC 12 digit numbers.  Just by way of an example diagram C.5005 shows a Belgian 2-axle van, Nos. 209216, 209219 & 209223.

Edited July 31, 2020 by SED Freightman
Diagram book titles revised after recovering them from store.

[Tony Teague]

12 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

Not sure if this is of any interest, I have two books of wagon diagrams that do not seem to appear on the Barrowmoor website, they are marked as 'C' Vehicles and contain diagram numbers which commence with C (presumably for Continental). The oldest diagrams appear to date from around 1950, going by the diagram revision dates, and so may perhaps just be BR copies of the SR Diagrams although as someone has kindly amended the books over time they also contain later builds prior to the introduction of the UIC 12 digit numbers.  Just by way of an example diagram C.5005 shows a Belgian 2-axle van, Nos. 209216, 209219 & 209223.

 

Yes, could be very much of interest, are they copyable or available in any way?

Tony

[SED Freightman]

Tony,

Very happy to try copying a few, do you have any particular wagon type in mind ?

[SED Freightman]

Here are four diagrams which may be of interest.  Unfortunately my scanner is not wide enough to accommodate the whole diagram page so I have missed off the left hand side, the only detail missing is the word 'RESTRICTIONS' in the top left corner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jwealleans]

That's the British-built ex-ROD 20T van illustrated on the first page.   There seem to have been a number of variants, including end doors, but I've only ever seen photographs of the ones with the brake hutch or the van with no brake platform of any kind.

[Tony Teague]

59 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

Here are four diagrams which may be of interest.  Unfortunately my scanner is not wide enough to accommodate the whole diagram page so I have missed off the left hand side, the only detail missing is the word 'RESTRICTIONS' in the top left corner.

 

 

Thanks SED Freightman the diagrams look useful.

Is it possible to copy the front page &/ or the index so that I understand what we are looking at and what else it contains?

Tony

[Andy Hayter]

Not sure if you are aware of these French wagons - just SNCF for your period but perhaps still labelled PLM.

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co206023/chemins-de-fer-de-paris-a-lyon-et-a-la-mediterranee-plm-train-ferry-van-1935-railway-wagon

 

Used for delivery of perishable fruit and veg from the South of France to the UK.  IIRC the NRM has an example.

[Tony Teague]

21 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Not sure if you are aware of these French wagons - just SNCF for your period but perhaps still labelled PLM.

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co206023/chemins-de-fer-de-paris-a-lyon-et-a-la-mediterranee-plm-train-ferry-van-1935-railway-wagon

 

Used for delivery of perishable fruit and veg from the South of France to the UK.  IIRC the NRM has an example.

 

Andy

I wasn't, so thank you - every bit helps!

Best wishes

Tony

[Fat Controller]

These Diagram Books may also be if interest:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_01_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_02_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_03_Issue.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFerryVehiclesIssue.pdf

Whilst some of the vehicles shown are relatively modern, there is some pretty antedeluvian stuff as well. The fourth link has some very interesting stuff, along with annotations about routeing restrictions. I especially like the Hungarian bogie fruit van, expressly forbidden to be sent up the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line. I can't imagine any reason for one to be so routed.

 

[Tony Teague]

Thanks!

Perhaps in that part of Wales they had a weakness for a particular kind of Hungarian fruit - made worse through it being forbidden!

I have heard lots of stories of various of these vans cropping up all over the UK - van loads of Lambretta's to Wimbledon for example; the traffic flows are as interesting as the vans themselves.

Tony

[jwealleans]

41 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Used for delivery of perishable fruit and veg from the South of France to the UK.  IIRC the NRM has an example.

 

It does.  Beware of the livery, though; Brian may remember that someone posted a photo of it on a French wagon forum and they all made fun of the colour.  They reckoned the apprentices at Mulhouse had popped round to Bricomarche and bought the first brown paint they found.   I built two - one finished PLM red, one SNCF brown.

 

[Tony Teague]

Presumably Jon, they are scratch built in plasticard?

I assume they are the same length and the image is just an optical delusion!

Tony

[jonhall]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

I especially like the Hungarian bogie fruit van, expressly forbidden to be sent up the Burry Port and Gwendraeth Valley line. I can't imagine any reason for one to be so routed.

 

Everything seems to have been restricted in that line, although I do slightly wonder about the likelihood of anyone wanting to send it there... the other line very often featuring in a painted restriction was the Canterbury an Whitstable, although again I'm not sure if there would have been much pent up demand.

 

 

The Hungarian van is one of my faves too - i have a few photo's and a drawing that might be good enough to work up an etch for. There were several interesting Hungarian refrigerator/ed vans, and these were regularly photographed in Hampton, apparently in conjunction with horse meat for dog food. there were also a handful registered by Bhev, who operated (still do) a tramway in Budapest - its a bit like London United Trams having some ferry vans!

 

Jon

 

[Tony Teague]

3 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

The Hungarian van is one of my faves too - i have a few photo's and a drawing that might be good enough to work up an etch for. There were several interesting Hungarian refrigerator/ed vans, and these were regularly photographed in Hampton, apparently in conjunction with horse meat for dog food. there were also a handful registered by Bhev, who operated (still do) a tramway in Budapest - its a bit like London United Trams having some ferry vans!

 

Jon

 

 

As with everything related to this topic Jon, I'd certainly be up for an etch or two of this prototype!

Tony

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, jonhall said:

... the other line very often featuring in a painted restriction was the Canterbury an Whitstable, although again I'm not sure if there would have been much pent up demand.

 

Jon

 

 

Remember that in the day train ferries ran from Richborough.  A delivery to Whitstable would then logically run via Minster to Canterbury and thence to Whitstable  - except that most wagons would be out of gauge for this last leg.  Hence the warning/prohibition notice.

 

OK I cannot think of a single reason why a wagon would need to go from Richborough to Whitstable, but I can think of a good reason why perhaps the reverse journey might be of interest given that Whitstable oysters were thought to be some of the best and might just have been exported via Richborough.

[jwealleans]

8 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Remember that in the day train ferries ran from Richborough.

 

Except that the Richborough ferry service ended in 1919 and the linkspan was then moved to Harwich. 

[SED Freightman]

On 31/07/2020 at 15:15, Tony Teague said:

 

Thanks SED Freightman the diagrams look useful.

Is it possible to copy the front page &/ or the index so that I understand what we are looking at and what else it contains?

Tony

Tony, as requested.  Couple of points to note now that I have had a more careful look at the document.  Firstly it is an office copy of the official diagram book which had been kept updated until superceeded, therefore some of the pages / diagrams are missing, either due to them being withdrawn or possibly they depicted vehicle types that were of no interest to the books owner. Secondly, I have scanned the handwritten cover for completeness and all the initial pages as they contain operating information that may be of interest, the detailed index pages are to follow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Teague]

4 minutes ago, SED Freightman said:

Tony, as requested.  Couple of points to note now that I have had a more careful look at the document.  Firstly it is an office copy of the official diagram book which had been kept updated until superceeded, therefore some of the pages / diagrams are missing, either due to them being withdrawn or possibly they depicted vehicle types that were of no interest to the books owner. Secondly, I have scanned the handwritten cover for completeness and all the initial pages as they contain operating information that may be of interest, the detailed index pages are to follow.

 

 

That's very helpful and I certainly haven't seen this before; thank you!

Tony

[SED Freightman]

Here is the first batch of index pages for Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. Note that some pages are missing, presumably destroyed as the book was updated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

Here is the first batch of index pages for Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. Note that some pages are missing, presumably destroyed as the book was updated.

 

 

Others may have seen these, but I certainly haven't - most grateful.

I will give these pages some attention over the next few days.

Best wishes

Tony

[jonhall]

10 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Here is the first batch of index pages for Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles. Note that some pages are missing, presumably destroyed as the book was updated.

 

 

I think most of the gaps in that index are PO tank wagons, and that your book is the 'administration owned' fleet. 

 

The other thing about all diagram books (not just the ferry) is that most copies are not complete, the local copies only held wagons that the end user was likely to need to know about, so if you were in a steel town you had a pretty good idea about flat wagons, but the perishables didn't appear. In the case of the ferry fleet there was an added variable - Harwich or Dover, I suspect when the later SFVxxx and SFV6xxx books were in use most stations only dispatched to one or the other (Harwich for Northern Europe and Dover for the South), so only got part books.

 

There were quite strict rules about getting wagons back to their home nations, if you had a empty and a back load to a different country, it could be only sent to one that was 'on the way' or where its new journey took it through the country of origin, I believe BR paid the equivalent of demurage from the moment the ferry docked in the uk, so it was very concerned about returning wagons.

 

jon

[jwealleans]

26 minutes ago, jonhall said:

There were quite strict rules about getting wagons back to their home nations, if you had a empty and a back load to a different country, it could be only sent to one that was 'on the way' or where its new journey took it through the country of origin, I believe BR paid the equivalent of demurage from the moment the ferry docked in the uk, so it was very concerned about returning wagons.

 

Quite correct, Jon, but for some of its existence BR maintained a pool of empty Continental wagons, despite the demurrage, for export traffic.   I've never seen precise information about where or how many, but several writers mention that it existed.

Edited August 3, 2020 by jwealleans

[Fat Controller]

59 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

Quite correct, Jon, but for some of its existence BR maintained a pool of empty Continental wagons, despite the demurrage, for export traffic.   I've never seen precise information about where or how many, but several writers mention that it existed.

In later years, BR would often send empty ferry-vans to Cornwall, as they were virtually guaranteed a back-load of bagged china clay.

[SED Freightman]

Here is the second (and final) batch of index pages for the Wagon Diagram Book of 'C' Vehicles.