Pre-nationalisation Ferry Vans / Continental Freight

[Tony Teague]

Most grateful!

Will spend some time studying these.

Tony

[saint]

On 12/06/2020 at 18:21, jwealleans said:

 

 

 

 

WOW WOW WOW!

Italian Hb refrigerated vans in OO! Really beautiful! It was the refrigerated version of the Fb van, the "British Loading Gauge" version of the ubiquitous F type van.

Here there is a preserved Fb, still unmarked - they are waiting for the registration of the rolling stock before paint markings, since it will run as bicycle transport on touristic trains - https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

 

 

On 12/06/2020 at 18:21, jwealleans said:

 

 

 

Top here is a ROCO Rivarossi Italian ventilated van, balanced on top of a scratchbuilt refrigerated one.  Because ROCO used a bizarre scale, this van is something like scale width and 2mm too short for 1:76, or scale length and 2mm too narrow.  I forget which .

 

 

 

Warning, the top model is for a continental F van, the lower one for an Hb.

In real life, Fb vans are a bit narrower and lower than the F counterparts. As for lenght I have still to check since the only restored vans in SVF fleet in Primolano are an Fb and and FF (longer, for parcel services). There are indeed F pattern vans in Primolano, but they need restoring and are seldom coupled with the restored ones, so rough lenght comparison was impossible.

Roco and "new Rivarossi" use 1:87 and I am unsure if Roco makes an Italian F van. "Old Rivarossi" used 1:80 scale. Hornby acquired the "new Rivarossi" molds. H0 dimensions should be multiplied by 1.145 theoretically, but since the Fb should be roughly 2 inches narrower, this means that a correctly scaled H0 Fb should be 0.64mm narrower than an F.

Those who consider altering a preexisting H0 F van might consider working on the kits shown in this page (it is advised to use supplied plastic wheels since metal ones might wear out the "bushing"): https://www.duegieditricestore.it/50-kit-ttm/
 

[Tony Teague]

Many thanks for the additional information.

Tony

[Tony Teague]

Having started this thread back in June, I have rather ignored it following the initial spate of activity, mainly due to other pressing issues on my main, layout thread; so it must be about time for an update.

 

Back on the first page I had identified 4 projects that I could reasonably be getting on with, although the scope of what other contributors had achieved was far wider than that; so what could be easier than to start with "Project No.1 - To build some of the Ratio SR 10T Dover Ferry vans" - especially as I had already built one, but incorrectly as it turned out!

 

 

The Ratio kit in question claims to build 3 or 4 different variations, one of which is the Ferry Van, but what I hadn't noticed when I built this one some years back (probably because I didn't read the instructions) was that the Ferry Vans in particular needed a shorter, 9' wheelbase, for which you needed to "go and buy an underframe kit from Parkside" or words to that effect.

 

 

So, having now acquired 4 Peco Parkside 9' underframes for the 4 vans I intended building I set off - thinking that this would be so simple that I would have all 4 vans built in an afternoon! Like most things, however, it was not that simple; for a start the floor pans of the two kits come in completely different shapes:

 

 

The Ratio one, to which the body ends and sides must be attached is on the left.

As a consequence much faffing about is required to get the Ratio body to sit on the Peco Parkside underframe, however, I eventually succeeded in producing something reasonable but my plan to knock out 4 in an afternoon had been blown:

 

 

 

Despite this early set back the next three were of course much simpler, once I installed a false floor of the correct shape on top of the Peco parkside undeframe:

 

Some detailing, trimming, plus the addition of internal weight is required before the roofs can go on, and then it will be off to the paint shop, then decals & weathering etc.

 

My original van will have to be 're-purposed' as it is now clear that the difference in wheelbase really does stand out (similar long wheel-based van used for comparison):

 

 

 

Once "Project 1" is completed, things will become far more complex, requiring scratch building, decal design and printing and heaven knows what else!

 

Tony

 

 

Edited February 7 by Tony Teague
Replacement of pictures

[jwealleans]

Ah, Tony, that's only the half of it.... as Adam pointed out to me many years ago after I'd done more or less what you have, these wagons had the Monarch brake gear which is nothing like a standard Morton.

 

Masokits do the etches.

 

[Tony Teague]

30 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Ah, Tony, that's only the half of it.... as Adam pointed out to me many years ago after I'd done more or less what you have, these wagons had the Monarch brake gear which is nothing like a standard Morton.

 

Masokits do the etches.

 

Oh bu&&er!

Does that mean that I don't actually need those Parkside underframes?

I'll have to take a look at Masokits but I have to say that my pet hate is doing things twice - so whether I will go back to these in the forseeable future remains to be seen!

(But thanks for letting me know!).

Tony

[SteveyDee68]

As if it isn't complicated enough having to think about sourcing a 9ft underframe, PECO appear to be deliberately confusing matters...

 

I mean, is this kit 9ft or 10ft long?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8 by SteveyDee68
Need to replace missing image

[SteveyDee68]

On 28/10/2020 at 20:52, jwealleans said:

Ah, Tony, that's only the half of it.... as Adam pointed out to me many years ago after I'd done more or less what you have, these wagons had the Monarch brake gear which is nothing like a standard Morton.

 

Masokits do the etches.

 

 

Did these wagons have ferry tie down points? I notice hooks on the buffer beams in the above - where these to assist tying down, or part of the coupling system?

 

Thanks

 

Steve S

[jwealleans]

I think they were fitted with safety chains.  Lord knows why, they'd been obsolete since the Old Queen's day.

 

No ferry tie downs in those days, just chains looped round the buffer stocks and wound tight.

[Tony Teague]

9 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

As if it isn't complicated enough having to think about sourcing a 9ft underframe, PECO appear to be deliberately confusing matters...

 

I mean, is this kit 9ft or 10ft long?

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, and is it LNER, BR or RCH?

Actually it is 9' but packing needs clarification.

Tony

[Tony Teague]

9 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

Did these wagons have ferry tie down points? I notice hooks on the buffer beams in the above - where these to assist tying down, or part of the coupling system?

 

Thanks

 

Steve S

 

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I think they were fitted with safety chains.  Lord knows why, they'd been obsolete since the Old Queen's day.

 

No ferry tie downs in those days, just chains looped round the buffer stocks and wound tight.

 

Yes, according to "An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons: Vol.4" they did.

[Tony Teague]

Closing off on the SR 10T ferry vans, it may also be worth mentioning that the illustration on the front of the box for the Ratio kit shows both the SR d.1458/9 van and the d.1430 Ferry van but both of the models shown are built with the 10' wheelbase for which the kit provides.

Given that 2/3rds of all of the wagons that the kit represents had a 9' wheelbase (almost 2,000 of them in d.1428 / 29/ 30!), with hindsight this seems very odd!

Tony

[Tony Teague]

Looking ahead (now with some trepidation!) to my "Project 2:   2. To modify the Rivarossi model 2010 FS Italia ventilated fruit van", I am again concerned about the undergubbins.

 

The existing model has absolutely nothing underneath it, whilst the 'Serie Fb/Eb (1930) drawing is equally spartan; nevertheless pictures of the vehicles clearly show that something is lurking under there! - a vacuum cylinder perhaps?

 

Do either @jwealleans or @jonhall, or indeed anyone else, have any better information or suggestions?

 

Tony

[jwealleans]

I have a diagram of the brakes on these vans, I believe.

 

You will regret asking, though.

[jonhall]

Not for this particular van, but a continental van of the period would be laid out like this.

 

Add a pair of brake levers and some sort of clutch, an air reservoir and possibly a vac cylinder - I can't remember if the fs vans were dual braked, or just piped?

 

Jon

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by jonhall

[Fat Controller]

5 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I think they were fitted with safety chains.  Lord knows why, they'd been obsolete since the Old Queen's day.

 

No ferry tie downs in those days, just chains looped round the buffer stocks and wound tight.

The Warflats, Warwells and Flatrol WLL. intended for Continental use after D-Day, were built with side chains. Some of the ones we used at BSC Landore in the early 1970s were still fitted with them.

[Tony Teague]

25 minutes ago, jonhall said:

Not for this particular van, but a continental van of the period would be laid out like this.

 

Add a pair of brake levers and some sort of clutch, an air reservoir and possibly a vac cylinder - I can't remember if the fs vans were dual braked, or just piped?

 

Jon

 

 

 

Jon

 

Thanks, the only things that are clear from both the drawings and images are the brake levers, so your posting is helpful as to what else might be under there.

 

Tony

[hmrspaul]

I've never known that was called a Monarch brake. 

 

BR built some vans and shock open merchandise with the same brake rigging as https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brshockopenwood/e2081d9a0   and the other side https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brshockopenwood/e25ee32e2

 

Paul

[jonhall]

Its a bit difficult to see, but on the two Belgian ferry vans I've peered under, the air brake cylinder appears to sit over one axle, almost acting directly on the brakes at that end, with only a push/pull rod down to the other end - that might be to give some room for a vac cylinder? Both had been re-sprung with UIC double link hangers, so may have had the vac gear taken off (or may never have had it).

 

Jon

[jonhall]

I sense there isn't that much under one of the Italian vans really - they seem to have mounted their gubbins up high, which puts it rather out of sight.

 

https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

 

I would suggest C section brass or plastic solebars, some MJT W irons and clasp brakes and MJT springs with a J-hanger for your era.  https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2286.php

 

For my STEF van I used an NNK EP brake gear from an EMU - something like these https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2938.php but I have my own casting now from my Cargowaggon Twin van kit.

 

Jon

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, jonhall said:

I sense there isn't that much under one of the Italian vans really - they seem to have mounted their gubbins up high, which puts it rather out of sight.

 

https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

 

I would suggest C section brass or plastic solebars, some MJT W irons and clasp brakes and MJT springs with a J-hanger for your era.  https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2286.php

 

For my STEF van I used an NNK EP brake gear from an EMU - something like these https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2938.php but I have my own casting now from my Cargowaggon Twin van kit.

 

Jon

 

Which certainly might account for the over-simplicity of the drawings!

Conversely, it might make modelling them a lot easier.

[jwealleans]

This is what I did on mine, based loosely on the drawing I sent you earlier:

 

 

As Jon says, a lot of it is high up and invisible.   I used Evergreen 1/8" channel for the solebars and the rest from Comet and 51L.

 

[Tony Teague]

1 minute ago, jwealleans said:

This is what I did on mine, based loosely on the drawing I sent you earlier:

 

 

As Jon says, a lot of it is high up and invisible.   I used Evergreen 1/8" channel for the solebars and the rest from Comet and 51L.

 

 

Thanks Jonathan

And is that based on the Rivarossi body?

Tony

[jwealleans]

That's one of my scratchbuilds, Tony, but it's a flat bottomed box in the same way as the Rivarossi body.  I discarded the underframe on the one I started and made a floor piece out of 60 thou plastikard as a basis to attach the undercrackers.

[Tony Teague]

Having started this thread with the best intentions back in June, I don't seem to have achieved much so far - as a result, my year end summary may be short!

 

Nevertheless, building a realistic rake of continental ferry vans remains one of my goals, whilst the prospect of anything suitable emerging in RTR, or even kit form, is remote, so I shall be moving this forward.

 

What I can say is that my initial post produced a great deal of excellent research material which is carefully retained, along with evidence of some superb models made by others; I also got material help from one or two RMWebbers which has been the base upon which I have set off.

 

In summary, I identified very early on that there were a small number of projects which it would be easier to get started with, and the current status of each of these is as follows:

 

1. SR 10T Dover Ferry vans of 1936 (Ratio kit) - I had previously built one of these on the wrong wheelbase but had some further kits in stock; I got hold of the right length underframes and built four of the vans, only to find that the brake gear was wrong! Everything stopped, but having looked again at this I think I shall complete the vans with whatever is the best representation of the Monarch brake gear that I can manage - after all, I suspect that the brake gear on the majority of my other wagons & vans might also fail a purist test.
2. FS Italia Fb/Eb ventilated fruit van of 1930 - I established that I had two of the Rivarossi model 2010 vans which will be the basis for these, and I have most recently been provided with some suggestions as to what the 'undergubbins' might look like. I may also need to put some effort into artwork for these.
3. Soc Belge refrigerated van (planked sides) - Very early on I was fortunate enought to be offered a pair of resin castings produced by another RMWebber; they will need some backdating, plus decals and undergubbins but I have little excuse for not gettting on with these!
4. FS Italia Provisions van - Precision Decals produce transfers for this and the next item; I also have drawings and images, including one of a model scratchbuilt by another RMWebber, so I had started to emulate this in plasticard, but somehow got distracted by other things. I must pick up where I left off!
5. DR 'Saarbrucken' van - Again, Precision Decals produce transfers for this, which I have obtained, but got no further at this stage.

Writing this summary has been a very helpful reminder to me of just how far I have got, and how much material is out there; in fact there are at least wo further projects that I have sufficient information to progress. My Continental Ferry Van train is certainly a feasible project but I just need to give it some time - oh, and learn how to use a graphics program so that I can produce some artwork!

 

My thanks again to all of those who have helped with material and suggestions so far, and particularly to the two Jonathans, Hall and Weallans, whose assistance has already been invaluable!

 

I hope to provide a further update here before too long, but Happy New Year!

 

Tony