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Non working Hornby class 43 HST 125


Dave Cousins
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Hi Guys

Newby to DCC. purchased a S/H Hornby class 43, no paperwork so no ID of the chip. Ran when first tried though very sluggish and erratic, lights worked.

Decided to give it a service, removed the motor and stripped it down, cleaning the commutator, brushes and motor housing, wheels and pick-ups, which were filthy.

Re-assembled and oiled as suggested, placed on the track, both main and service, lights now flash red and white and no response to any other commands.

Did notice when dismantling that there were three wires, two brown to the brushes and one black (presumably ground). On assembly there is no visible contact point for the black, I securely wedged it to the metal of the motor housing. Take that black wire off and the lights go out.

I'm using a Dynamis Ultima and have tried to read CV 8 to get the manufacturer but all I get is either code 11 or 12 which apparently are error codes showing the unit is unable to read the chip. Have trolled through uTube without much luck.

Have I cooked the chip? Should there be a specific location for the black (ground)? Does anyone have any ideas on a remedy? I have a close-up photo of the motor and the black wire if any help.

Thanks in advance.

David.

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58 minutes ago, Dave Cousins said:

Did notice when dismantling that there were three wires, two brown to the brushes and one black (presumably ground). On assembly there is no visible contact point for the black, I securely wedged it to the metal of the motor housing. Take that black wire off and the lights go out.

Can you give us a bit more info on where the wires come from / go to and their relationship with the decoder. Photos can be helpful.

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Hi Jim

Thanks for getting back, as requested, some more info and if I can three photos.

With the cab on the right. The left-hand brush wire to Yellow on the chip

The right-hand brush to black on the chip

The black (common) to Grey on the chip

Th

The front pick up to red on the chip.

Any help?

motor ass.jpg

boggy.jpg

rear boggy.jpg

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Hi Grriff

Thanks for your reply, now I'm totally confused as the loco did run when I first got it home, I have not changed any wiring. As I said, with the (ground) in place the lights flash, take it off and nothing at all.

Thanks for the wiring diagram though, ill get up to the workshop tomorrow and have a go at a rewire.

Thanks again

David

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It would appear that you have crossed 2 wires 

Hopefully the drawings will reveal all

 

1544779202_dcccl43.png.7d7538c477df69eea0c8507dc1ac11f6.png

If I have followed the wires correctly 

The Black wire at the power bogie end connects to the Decoder grey which is the motor (-)                                   (currently incorrectly connected to the Chassis)

One of the brown wires at the power bogie end connects to the Decoder orange which is the motor (+)

The other brown wire at the power bogie end connects to the Decoder black which is the LH track pickup           (currently incorrectly to the motor)

 

The Black wire from the unpowered bogie  connects to the decoder red which is the RH track pickup

John

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Hi Guys. John, Grriff and Jim

I'm back for some more help. I've rewired the loco as per your collective advice, the situation is as now:

No more flashing lights but nothing else either. Loco does not respond to any channel 1 through 9.

Does this mean I have cooked the chip and will have to replace it, I'm beginning to think this might be the easiest way.

Sorry to be such a dumbo, I've checked all the connections all the way back to pick-ups and rails, I'm lost for anything else to do. Any further advise, suggestions gratefully received.

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28 minutes ago, Dave Cousins said:

Hi Guys. John, Grriff and Jim

I'm back for some more help. I've rewired the loco as per your collective advice, the situation is as now:

No more flashing lights but nothing else either. Loco does not respond to any channel 1 through 9.

Does this mean I have cooked the chip and will have to replace it, I'm beginning to think this might be the easiest way.

Sorry to be such a dumbo, I've checked all the connections all the way back to pick-ups and rails, I'm lost for anything else to do. Any further advise, suggestions gratefully received.

MIght be best to strip out all the wiring and start afresh with a new chip

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This version of the Hornby HST is the old Ringfield version. It is fairly straightforward to hardwire a decoder but essential that the motor frame is fully isolated from the brush connectors. As made the left hand brush connector makes a contact with the motor housing - from the photos above it's clear this has been modified in some way but to absolutely sure, there must be no direct connection between any pickup and any part of the mechanism except through the decoder.

 

It appears that as bought the model was functioning to a degree but redoing the wiring does seem to have been a good suggestion. One thing I am not clear on when you say that the lights flashed red and white, are you talking about lights on the model? As made these models just had the white (front) headlight (a bulb) wired through a diode, but there are aftermarket red/white LEDs that can be fitted. If you want to wire these in correctly a little more care is required as LEDs function within a very narrow set of current parameters so the lights do not just need to be wired correctly but must also have the correct resistors in place so as not to be overloaded. These may or may not already be present.

 

I order of play, I would suggest ensuring that the motor is wired and works first, and then look at the lighting. 

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Hi Jim

Thanks for staying with me on this.

Sorry its a bit difficult to explain but I'll try. Loco on the service track, connected to my old Bachmann EZ controller. Running through 1-9 (10 being for non-DC as I'm sure you know). Loco will not respond?

Think I'm resolved to replace the chip when finances allow.

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I'm assuming that 1 - 9 are the possible locomotive addresses that the Bachmann EZ controller can access. It shouldn't be necessary to try all of these as the address should not have changed from when you first got it to work and if the decoder was reset, then it should revert to the default address of 3.

 

I don't really understand your references to ground or common.  My understanding is that the red and black wires from the decoder always go to the track (via the locomotive pickups) and the orange and grey wires from the decoder go to the terminals on the motor.  You shouldn't need any of the other wires from the decoder to get the locomotive to move.  The Red / Black wires provide the electrical circuit that powers the decoder (from the track).  The Grey / Orange wires provide the electrical circuit that powers the motor (from the decoder).  There shouldn't be any connections between any of these wires.

 

The lighting circuits should most likely be connected to yellow, white and blue, but these shouldn't be connected to the motor terminals - I note that your second post indicates that the yellow wire goes to the left brush, which would be incorrect. 

 

If you go with stripping all of the wiring out and starting again with a new chip, make sure you test the locomotive / motor on DC before attempting to fit a new decoder.

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2 hours ago, Dave Cousins said:

Bachmann EZ controller

Thats what I was confused about - you were using a Dynamis before, what was the decoder using at the outset as I think the EZ will only recognise 1 - 9, if you are out of that range, it will not pick it up.

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4 hours ago, Dave Cousins said:

Hi Andyman

Thanks, ill have a look in the morning, your saying no connection necessary from track contacts on the motor boggy, silly question, where does the circuit go to ground?

For the original UK made Hornby HST (which this looks to be) the metal motor housing that forms the driving bogie is connected to the wheels forming one side of the circuit. The metal block on the trailing bogie is connected to the wheels forming the other side of the circuit. For DCC operation, there needs to be a connection from one of the bogies to the black wire in the decoder and from the other bogie to the red wire in the decoder. The orange and grey wires from the decoder each go to one of the brush terminals (which as I said above need to be idolated from any direct connection to the meatl motor housing. That is what makes the circuit from track via decoder to one side of the motor, out from the other side of the motor back through the decoder and then back to the track.

Edited by andyman7
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Here are a couple of images that show where the decoder wires should go.  (for those, like me who work better with images)

The wires marked Motor (+) & Motor(-) refer to the brush terminals

 

HST.png.124b72ce84ab19df1d70c7cf53f33f51.png

 

The following pic is to show the connection of the black wire (from the decoder) to the frame of the motor 

The frame or the motor is the LH (left hand) rail As mentioned earlier by Andyman7

 

 

532531384_hstpowerbogie.png.c7aaf8d1932b927ad14f383bd6972ebd.png

If you removed the wheels from the dummy bogie it is important that they go back the correct way, with the geared wheels on the same side as each other

But on the opposite side to the power bogie

 

 

1575289646_HStgears.png.31a66aaa397f66bb4c72e32e87215bef.png

 

A couple of things that might be worth trying

Try running it on DC with the decoder installed. if it runs then the decoder might be OK

Try resetting the decoder, CV8 set to 8 works on some decoders

If this works then the loco should run on address 3

 

You could also try setting CV29 to 6 & CV1 To 3

If this works then the loco should run on address 3

 

John

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Hi Guys

Bee problem sorted, I'm back but no further forward, I’ve now got two locos not working. With lots of help from you guys, I've checked all the wiring, readjusted where necessary, confirmed my service track has power by running an old DC class 40.

The class 43 HST with lights: now has no lights at all and will not run even on DC on service track.

The single-car DMU (class 107?) also no longer running even on ST on DC.

All attempts to change CV 8 or any of the others on either of these locos results in error code 11 or 12 using my Dynamis.

Before I lose any more of the little hair I've still got I'm going to bite the bullet and get some more chips and start again.

Thanks to you all for all your efforts and suggestions, I hate giving up but if I don’t, something is going swimming ( we have a pond below the Velux windows in the roof.)

Thanks again Guys

 

Dave

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I wouldn't fit the new chips until you have sorted the problem of not running under DC (as noted by Dungrange above). Then disconnect the motor brushes and check (with a meter) that there is no connection between either brush and the the track (as noted above). You don't mention a meter anywhere in your posts but I presume you have one to check the wiring

 

 

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260953941_chipwiring1.jpg.3558a15bc371a49fdd19c911ec598ff5.jpgHi Grriff

Thanks for the further advice, I do have some progress to report. After double-checking as you suggested, there is no connection between either rail and the body of the motor, confirmed by meter, the connection between each rail and the appropriate colour on the diagram also seems to be correct. I did, however, find the black wire had come away from the chip, now resoldered and I now have lights but still no movement, however with the loco on a rolling road and connecting power directly to the bushes it runs, this applies to both locos but neither will run on the track.

One possible thing, I looked for a vacant terminal on the chip for the black, under my eyeglass (used to be a watchmaker) I could see a pretty obvious place it could have come from, a duel connection with the mauve, which in this loco is a spare wire anyway.

See photos as large as I could get them of both sides of the chip of the HST.

No idea why the DMU will not run as I have only stripped, cleaned and re-oiled the motor.

Sorry if I appear a right numpty but I'm new to DCC and only have a very basic knowledge of electronics, this has got me scratching my head. Hope this makes some sense to you because I am baffled.

Dave

Thanks Broms Mods for your links to the HST, I will keep these for future reference.

 

chip wiring 2.jpg

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4 hours ago, Dave Cousins said:

One possible thing, I looked for a vacant terminal on the chip for the black, under my eyeglass (used to be a watchmaker) I could see a pretty obvious place it could have come from, a duel connection with the mauve, Violet  which in this loco is a spare wire anyway.

It looks like the printed circuit pad for the black wire from the decoder may have been damaged

The violet wire ( J1) while it is not connected to anything is usually one of the function outputs (like the white & yellow wires) & could be used to control another light (cab interior light for example)

Connecting the black wire to the violet wire could damage that function output

 

 

 

Decorer.png.6c90df851036b6d0373969ec8370e1b0.png

 

If I am reading the decoder layout correctly then the red wire (right-hand rail) connects to 2 diodes (half of a bridge rectifier) see the red line I have added

The black wire (left-hand rail) connects to 2 diodes (other half of the bridge rectifier(black line)) 

The black & violet wires shouldn't connect.

Normally they would be connected to pads J2 & J1 which are on opposite sides of the PCB (Printed Circuit Board) & shouldn't be connecter to each other.

If the PCB pad for the black wire is damaged or missing then connecting the black wire to the end of either diode indicated by the arrows should do the same job

 

Hope this helps John

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