PSX-1 Circuit Breaker, Lenz and Railcom

[RFS]

For many years I used a PSX-1 CB along with my Lenz LZV100 so that I could have both a track bus protected by the PSX, and an accessory bus that bypassed it. I mounted a 12v LED on the layout fascia so that I could see when it had tripped.

 

Recently I upgraded to a Lenz LZV200 for a dedicated track bus, and used the LZV100 for turnouts, accessories and feedback. I use Traincontroller which takes care of that. In the process I decided not to continue with the PSX and disconnected it. Having the LZV100 for the turnouts meant I could enable Railcom on the LZV200, and also if I encountered a short when running manually, I could still change turnouts via the LZV100. Sadly that doesn't work, as when the LZV200 trips, TC sees that and kindly stops the LZV100 too. 

 

So I decided today to re-instate the PSX for the LZV200. Although it seems to work, the 12v LED is on all the time, but only about 50% brightness. If a short occurs, it illuminates fully. It was never partially lit before. My bus is a U-shape so I tried disconnecting one half and the LED goes out and the remaining half works fine. But disconnecting the other half does the same so it's not a track fault. 

 

But then I realized I had enabled Railcom on the LZV200, and when I disabled it the LED went out. I am at a loss to understand whether I have a problem or not. Trains seem to run OK.

 

Anyone else with a PSX seen this?

Edited June 16, 2020 by RFS

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

Did you connect the LED to the PSX-1?

 

I have a PSX-1 and as I can see it, I just eyeball the LEDs on the PSX-1 itself when I think there is a short.

 

But, recently, I have also been experimenting with Railcom and on my setup, Z21, PSX-1, track bus. Railcom appears to work fine whether the PSX-1 is in circuit or not.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[melmerby]

Hi Robert

If you run two completely different systems only the one will trip with a short on the track but both will switch on & off using the on / off controls on either or on TC.

Could you do that somehow?

I'm using a Z21 for the track & Lenz 100 system for turnouts & feedback.

 

Alternatively

How about disconnecting the "E" wire from the LVZ100 then it won't get the "e-stop" signal from the other unit? (I don't know whether it affects anything else)

[RFS]

35 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

Did you connect the LED to the PSX-1?

 

I have a PSX-1 and as I can see it, I just eyeball the LEDs on the PSX-1 itself when I think there is a short.

 

But, recently, I have also been experimenting with Railcom and on my setup, Z21, PSX-1, track bus. Railcom appears to work fine whether the PSX-1 is in circuit or not.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

The LED is connected to the PSX, as the  PSX is mounted out of sight. It is on terminals J5. 

 

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Hi Robert

If you run two completely different systems only the one will trip with a short on the track but both will switch on & off using the on / off controls on either or on TC.

Could you do that somehow?

I'm using a Z21 for the track & Lenz 100 system for turnouts & feedback.

 

Alternatively

How about disconnecting the "E" wire from the LVZ100 then it won't get the "e-stop" signal from the other unit? (I don't know whether it affects anything else)

 

When TC sees the LZV200 trip it appears to send a stop to the LZV100. The LH100 connected to the LZV100 flashes STOP when this happens.

 

The E terminal is for connecting the LZV200 to a booster such as LV102/3. There is no connection between the two command stations. If I close TC and trip the LZV200 then the LZV100 does not get stopped.

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, RFS said:

 

 

 

 

When TC sees the LZV200 trip it appears to send a stop to the LZV100. The LH100 connected to the LZV100 flashes STOP when this happens.

 

The E terminal is for connecting the LZV200 to a booster such as LV102/3. There is no connection between the two command stations. If I close TC and trip the LZV200 then the LZV100 does not get stopped.

I'm trying to picture how you have it connected.

Do you have just one handset and two main units (100 & 200)?

If so what is connected where? I assumed the LZV100 was being used as a slave.

[RFS]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I'm trying to picture how you have it connected.

Do you have just one handset and two main units (100 & 200)?

If so what is connected where? I assumed the LZV100 was being used as a slave.

 

The two digital systems are not physically connected in any way. TC supports more than one digital system: on my layout engines and trains are defined to the LZV200, and feedback indicators and turnouts to the LZV100. I would have thought the same applies to your layout where your feedback indicators are on the LZV100 and everything else on the Z21.

 

I did manage for a while with one LH100 handset, but have subsequently bought an LH101 

[melmerby]

Hi Robert

Brain fade on my behalf. Lockdown must really be getting to me.

 

Mine doesn't trip because the Z21 doesn't trip, I have a separate NCE EB1 between the track and the Z21, which operates first.

 

I'll  try tripping the Z21 directly to see what happens.

 

EDIT

If the Z21 trips, the Lenz switches off as well.

Maybe that's why I left the breaker in circuit as I originally had it like yours with just the Lenz system, with a split feed from the LZV100, one to the track via the breaker and one to the accessories directly.

 

Keith

Edited June 17, 2020 by melmerby

[RFS]

Decided this afternoon to carry out some more tests. With Railcom enabled (and hence the LED glowing) started a full TC automated schedule. Although everything seemed to be OK at first, I soon noticed nearly all trains were stopping 2-3 inches beyond their stop marker. Most noticeable were long trains that draw up to the end of the platform. So I disabled Railcom on the LZV200 and re-ran some of the affected schedules. All trains now stopped correctly. Seemed I had a decide whether to keep the PSX and disable Railcom, and only enable Railcom when I needed to make some changes. The LZV200 has a Global Railcom Detector, which means I can both read and write all CVs on any loco on the layout regardless of location.

 

But then tried running a full schedule with Railcom disabled, and every now and again the PSX was tripping for its usual 2 seconds and restarting. I'm sure there was no overload despite the railway room being quite hot. It's not done that before. So I've decided there's no point in persevering with it at this stage.

 

I have emailed DCC Specialties and will await what they say. The PSX is quite old - it's revision H from 2008.

 

EDIT: the email has been bounced as undeliverable. I copy-and-pasted it from their documentation so I don't where they have gone.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by RFS

[Bucoops]

I have some older PSXs which I picked up second hand. I tried to find out if the firmware was upgradable but was unable to contact the manufacturer - I think they may have ceased trading

 

Following this thread as my intention is to use them with Lenz equipment as well...

[Bucoops]

I have found their site but you have to accept the security warning:

 

https://66.39.46.164/products/powershield_x.htm

 

 

[RFS]

13 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

I have found their site but you have to accept the security warning:

 

https://66.39.46.164/products/powershield_x.htm

 

 

 

If you ping dccspecialties.com it responds fine and says the IP address is 50.63.202.53.  But if you try to access that, or www. dccspecialties.com, it just hangs. 

 

This what I got this afternoon from an email sent yesterday

 

Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:

info@dccspecialties.com
Your message wasn't delivered. Despite repeated attempts to deliver your message, the recipient's email system refused to accept a connection from your email system.

 

Could simply be their server is down or in some sort of failed state?

Edited June 17, 2020 by RFS

[Bucoops]

It's been down for months and the domain name is available to purchase.

[Nigelcliffe]

Threads elsewhere on the internet suggest that "Tonys Train Exchange" is the company to ask questions for DCC Specialties products. 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Nigelcliffe

[RFS]

5 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Threads elsewhere on the internet suggest that "Tony's Train Exchange" is the company to ask questions for DCC Specialties products. 

 

 

 

Thanks. I've emailed them and I'll see what they come up with. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by RFS

[Suzie]

On the LZV100 you could isolate the 'E' line from tripping the command station, if you can do this with the LZV200 as well you should be able to prevent Traincontroller from picking up the stop event because it won't see it. I have not seen inside a LZV200 to see how it is wired, but the 'E' line may be a physical connection that you could disconnect if there is no software configuration you can do to the booster in the LV200.

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Suzie said:

On the LZV100 you could isolate the 'E' line from tripping the command station, if you can do this with the LZV200 as well you should be able to prevent Traincontroller from picking up the stop event because it won't see it. I have not seen inside a LZV200 to see how it is wired, but the 'E' line may be a physical connection that you could disconnect if there is no software configuration you can do to the booster in the LV200.

I suggested that a few posts back, but in two stand alone systems (which is what Robert has) the CDE on the LZVs aren't connected to anything else.

I had assumed that one unit was feeding the other via the CDE but they are not connected.

[RFS]

38 minutes ago, Suzie said:

On the LZV100 you could isolate the 'E' line from tripping the command station, if you can do this with the LZV200 as well you should be able to prevent Traincontroller from picking up the stop event because it won't see it. I have not seen inside a LZV200 to see how it is wired, but the 'E' line may be a physical connection that you could disconnect if there is no software configuration you can do to the booster in the LV200.

 

32 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I suggested that a few posts back, but in two stand alone systems (which is what Robert has) the CDE on the LZVs aren't connected to anything else.

I had assumed that one unit was feeding the other via the CDE but they are not connected.

 

On the 3.6 documentation for the LZV100, there's an option called "E-Line Configuration" which allows you to do that , ie

"Configuring the E line lets you select whether the system or single power district shuts down after a short. Write CV7=50, CV7=90: E-line to the LZ is activated (default) or
CV7=50, CV7=91 E-line to the LZ is deactivated"

 

With the E-line deactivated, only the booster suffering the short is shut down, not the command station. But the later documentation for the LZV100 no longer describes this although it still worked. No mention on the LZV200 either although it seemed to work, but the LZV200 did not return to normal when the short was corrected. However I was concerned about the way power seemed to be repeatedly being tested until the short was fixed. Perhaps that's why it's been dropped by Lenz.

 

With the PSX I did not allow it to restart after 2 seconds automatically: once you've had a short  with TC - even an intermittent one -  you need time to deal with it, so I had a reset toggle switch wired up so when I was ready I could restart it. Usually this meant locking all blocks and schedules in TC so that once all trains had stopped I could make sure all were correctly positioned (eg not left straddling blocks).

 

The E and M terminals also provide the emergency stop facility. I have several push-to-make red buttons wired to it, and a push-to-break button under the lift-up flap.

[RFS]

Eventually today got this reply from Larry Maier of DCC Specialties (the designer of the PSX) about the issue with the PSX and Railcom - 

 

 

"Railcom removes power from the track to allow the reverse data transmission. The PSX derives its power from the track DCC. Essentially, every time Railcom cuts the track power, it removes power from the PSX which is therefore turning on and off. That is why you see a dim indication in your LED since it comes on every time track power is turned off by Railcom.

 

You may be able to adjust the Railcom parameters such that the PSX is able to retain operation during the "power outage". The only other solution is to turn off Railcom or not use the PSX."

 

I don't wish to disable Railcom, so looks like I have no further usage for the PSX.

[smokebox]

Wonder if you could use a stay alive? Probably not easily.

Edited June 29, 2020 by smokebox

[Ron Ron Ron]

With regard to RFS’s reply from Larry Maier of DCC Specialties; I would have thought that company might consider looking at revising their products if they’re not compatible with all the NMRA DCC Standards, irrespective of the fact that RailCom was only adopted formally as part of the Standards just coming up to a decade ago. Notwithstanding the low uptake of this optional bi-directional communication capability by US DCC brands..
 

 

.

[Nigelcliffe]

11 hours ago, RFS said:

Eventually today got this reply from Larry Maier of DCC Specialties (the designer of the PSX) about the issue with the PSX and Railcom - 

 

 

"Railcom removes power from the track to allow the reverse data transmission. The PSX derives its power from the track DCC. Essentially, every time Railcom cuts the track power, it removes power from the PSX which is therefore turning on and off. That is why you see a dim indication in your LED since it comes on every time track power is turned off by Railcom.

 

You may be able to adjust the Railcom parameters such that the PSX is able to retain operation during the "power outage". The only other solution is to turn off Railcom or not use the PSX."

 

I don't wish to disable Railcom, so looks like I have no further usage for the PSX.

 

The reply is consistent with other information and observations I've found over the years. 

 

Yes, bottom line PSX range isn't compatible with RailCom.    

I've read the NCE breaker may be OK with RailCom, and experience of the MERG DCO kit, if fitted with the alternative RailCom-compatible firmware (not the default in the kit), is OK on a Lenz system with RailCom turned on.

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[WIMorrison]

I tried the PSX-AR and despite what Larry Maier said it wouldn't work with Railcom. I am glad to see that he has now changed his position.  I also tried the MERG DCO with the alternative code loaded and found it variable in success with a Z21 and Railcom.

 

The only breaker I found that didn't have issues with Railcom is the NCE EB1, though I have since changed to using a Roco 10807 to provide the track bus removing the need for the EB1

[RFS]

The only issue I appeared to have with the PSX was that the red warning LED on my control panel was on all the time, although dimly, when Railcom was activated. If I hadn't bothered with that LED I would not have known, as otherwise everything appeared normal. Not good that the PSX was in fact repeatedly power-cycling.

 

So I'll run without. I'm happy that the LZV200's internal breaker works faultlessly, and of course Traincontroller knows immediately. My NCE Switch-8s, which do not work at all with Railcom active, are now on the LZV100 with Railcom disabled there. 

 

I've now added a flagman to TC whose trigger is "continue after stop or freeze" and whose operations are "lock all blocks", "lock all schedules" and "stop clock" (ie stop further schedules starting). So once I've dealt with the short (almost always a derailment) and restart,  this flagman is triggered and existing schedules will only continue as far as their blocks have already been allocated, which allows me to make sure all is OK before resuming full automatic operation. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by RFS