What was "ex mover"?

[spikey]

I stumbled upon this charming 1962 film about carriage cleaning

 and am now left wondering what "ex mover" (x-mover?) was, apart from being a detergent of some kind used for carriage cleaning.  Anybody know?  Also wondering if anybody still uses shoddy ...

Edited June 18, 2020 by spikey

[doilum]

Are there any shoddy mills lenft in the UK?

[62613]

1 minute ago, doilum said:

Are there any shoddy mills lenft in the UK?

On Manchester MRCs Dewsbury Midland layout. I think the actual building still survives

[keefer]

Exmover was the chemical detergent used for cleaning locos/coaches. It was supposed to be applied in the proper concentration, be left on for the appropriate time, then neutralised/washed off.

Apart from giving a 'marked' finish if not rinsed off properly, if it was left on too long it would start attacking the paint finish - hence all those pics of diesel-hydraulics whose paint seemed to be being removed one layer at a time.

On the following link to Google Books, scroll up to p.184 for the start of the railway entry 'chemists cleaning trains' :

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IL3cDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=exmover&source=bl&ots=mBWrKDJHtG&sig=ACfU3U12UAVQ-IVd9Yx5ltGSkFO-bwr0Cw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLqsfR9IrqAhUJSxUIHetJCEAQ6AEwCXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=exmover&f=false

Edited June 18, 2020 by keefer

[Oldddudders]

Was Exmoover oxalic acid? It was mixed w water in a separate mixing tank before being pumped into the main tank. 

[Nearholmer]

Exmover was a mildly acidic carriage cleaning agent, containing, I think, oxalic acid, which is the stuff that occurs naturally in rhubarb, although I’m pretty sure it wasn’t made from boiled rhubarb.

 

It had a very distinctive smell, which pervaded all BR(S) carriage cleaning operations, the trains, and indeed the carriage cleaning staff.

 

I think that for carriage washing machines it came in powder/granule form that was added to a mixer tank that had big slow-stirrers in it.

 

(Snap with OD!)

Edited June 18, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Wheatley]

It was oxalic acid and it is still available. It was the only stuff which got brake dust off.

[Oldddudders]

I note it now comes as as thickened liquid in drums.

[balders]

Charming film. Very much of its age and very interesting. Note the change in the music between scenes involving men working and ladies scrubbing and sweeping. 

 

Without doubt would upset someone now though! Classic snippets of life. Great stuff. 

 

Regards

 

Guy

[Nearholmer]

OD

 

didn't the staff used to mix up a thick-soup version of it in buckets for “spot cleaning” of particularly grubby bits of trains that got missed in the washers? I’m sure I remember seeing that done, but quite why anyone would want trains that clean I now can’t fathom.

 

I remember helping(?) repair and maintain washers when I was a trainee and it was a much disliked job because it was often wet and dirty, and access to the parts involved lots of clambering and stretching, and several of them could only be got to by walking down the track with trains flying by in all directions - one near Clapham Junction IIRC was particularly nasty to get to.

 

K

Edited June 18, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Oldddudders]

I think hand-application with brushes, aka "hand-bashing", was generally undertaken with Wundagunge, another formulation, for which adequate PPE probably wasn't provided. But I'm quite sure Exmover at twice the recommended strength would do fine.

 

After prolonged cold snaps, when washers couldn't be used for fear of leaving ice on running-boards, the stock would look ghastly, not least because of all the de-icer fluid thrown up of the con rail. So hand-bashing became a necessity for the worst units. 

[Nearholmer]

Funny you should mention PPE, because some of the repair work that I mention was supposed to involve wearing wellies, ludicrously thick rubber gloves, and goggles, but if you put all that lot on you couldn’t actually do the work (try climbing a cat ladder in BR stores issue wellies, for instance) and it all had to be carried to site (or walk there in wellies), so basically it was done on a wing and a prayer.

[4630]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

On Manchester MRCs Dewsbury Midland layout. I think the actual building still survives

 

Yes the Machell Brothers mill building still survives.  It's upper floors are now converted to residential flats.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Was Exmoover oxalic acid? It was mixed w water in a separate mixing tank before being pumped into the main tank. 

Definitely an oxalic acid base, not sure about any other chemicals involved in the basic compound - mix with water to the correct dilution and away you go.  The reason it was used was because it had been found that oxalic acid in solution was the best, and most safe (compared with more noxious substances) for removing brake block dust from vehicle bodies.  Properly applied and then properly washed off with plain water after allowing the correct time for it t work and it would do exactly what it said on the tin with a really good result although invariably the best finish was achieved by an experienced person using a long handled brush, a very skilled job.

 

The problem with many cleaning plants was getting the mixture right in the first place and equally importantly getting the correct time between application and rinse cycles as well as thorough brushing by the washer.  If any of these thing weren't done to the letter there would be staining.  The few separate loco cleaning plants on the Western - which didn't last long as far as I know - weren't under the control of the Regional carriage cleaning expert and some didn't have brushes which no doubt affected (badly) their results.  But most of the paint damage undoubtedly occurred in carriage cleaning plants that weren't doing the job correctly for whatever reason.

 

In the passenger yard which I managed for several years our loco hauled sets were booked maintenance attention plus heavy cleaning once every 4 weeks.  At that interval the backs of the coaches (i.e. the coach ends) were supposed to be hand cleaned because the washer never touched them and if a particular carriage cleaning supervisor was on duty he would try to get the whole set exterior hand cleaned if he thought it needed it and he had the right people on duty.  On his own he could do a coach side in not much more than half the 'Standard Time' allowed for the job and get a superb result.  One trick we also had at the depot was removing Exmover stains provided they weren't too bad - the only thing which could shift them was Exmover itself  but to make sure the Exmover was taken off using a mixture of BR GIC (General Interior Cleaner - basically a liquid soap based fluid diluted in water and with similarities to Fairy Liquid) - if that was used immediately after a drop of water and done properly you finished up with a nice shiny job and no Exmover stains remaining.  GIC could be used to wash coach exteriors but it wasn't as good as Ex, mover at removing road dirt and couldn't touch brake block dust.

 

At one time the SR used something different (back in the days of green painted stock) which smelt very differeent from Ex and you could sma ell o it as you opened a coach door - I haven't got a clue what it was. (Ian's Wundagunge perhaps?).

[Robert Shrives]

It was always said to me that a wash plant would keep a clean train clean but to get to a clean train hand bashing the only thing to work. I recall a friend from HSE stopping the wash plant being used at Soho CS as no staff could tell him the dilution levels required nor had any idea on ppe required . Took a few days and all back in order but why injure staff .  Train speed at 3mph much easier now with wash speed options on newer units compared to guessing with a 304 etc.  

 

The worst thing about exmover was helpful cleaning of windows with poor rinsing - the patch removal of paint a certainty, quite a few pics of  trains with a dappled sides. What ever SR used it was really good at camouflaging the dull green on early CEPs into a stripy of white and green "dazzle" livery!

 

On Ffestiniog and WHR stock all hand bashed with records kept of when and who along with loads of data sheets using truck wash and warm water for diliuting   correctly.  Depending on brand a pre wet required and now a form of cream cleaner used to remove brake block dust off glass only - with loads of water required to rinse.  Modern cleaners do work well but do not have the skin and bone rotting reputation of Ex mover  of old.  I started hand bashing FR stock back in 1979 and still do the increased size stock today ( Well last year!) and it always gets "not like BR" from the public watching, old views last a long time. Great film of its day as said above.

Robert             

[steve1]

Fascinating stuff. Guessing it was one of the depots in Bristol for most of it?

 

steve

[spikey]

Fascinating.  Did they never try hosing down the carriage sides rather than bucket-and-brushing it? 

 

Whatever, seeing that shoddy being used prompts me to ask - what is/was the difference 'twixt shoddy and mungo?  Back in apprentice days, I was never sure which I was using ...

[russ p]

Exmover was a train cleaner that actually worked , smell used to remind me of egg sandwiches when going through the washer.  Modern stuff in wash plants hardly seems to remove much at all.

I remember as a teenage volunteer on the north Yorkshire moors in the early 80s  using it to handwash coaches every Sunday morning. 

All the guards TTIs , shunters and trolley staff used to muck in every Sunday before doing other jobs.

No gold braid and self importance back then , just used to get on with it,  happy days

[Robert Shrives]

I guess buckets kept things moving , hoses back in the day were heavy things compared to the light weight 15mm stuff about today  and hose points always in the wrong place , with buckets nothing could get left and made into 4 foot or 2 foot shorties!  

 

Despite all the safety stuff  wellingtons are really buckets with feet within - exmover in welly not good and certainly caused injuries.  I think flat caps probably better at keeping mix of face /eyes than a grubby set of goggles  but now a hand bash gang using ex mover would look like a scfi movie scene of old !   Truck mover cleaner  as souped up  fairy and environmentally neutral is a lot easier, if not always effective as acid wash !  

I think the music is of its day and was "clarion call" music heralding change and an optimistic future - well perhaps it was in 1962 - the year I was born..          

[anroar53]

I can remember doing fortnightly checks on the concentration of the acid levels in our local Carriage Washer. You would draw a small measured plastic beaker full from the main tank, then add a tablet into the beaker. This would dissolve and the liquid would change colour. I can't exactly recall what the various colours were now but the results had to be entered into the Washer Log Book and arrangements made to either dilute the mix if the acid content was too high, or add more mix if it was too weak. I vaguely recall the optimum result of the test was supposed to result in the sample turning a very pale yellow ?

[doilum]

3 hours ago, 62613 said:

On Manchester MRCs Dewsbury Midland layout. I think the actual building still survives

I was thinking about current manufacturers

[Oldddudders]

Mike makes the important point about how long the Exmover was left to "pickle" Carriage washers were designed so you ran the train through, at 3 mph, taking on the acid, then ran it back through with a water wash to rinse. Simple, eh? But with a 12-car train, that meant the leading vehicle had far, far more time with acid on than the last vehicle. Later installations tried to have sequential acid and rinse in separate plants - but how much length does your yard need to do that? Rather more than 3 x 12-cars! And we think we have space limitations to cope with!

[lanchester]

1 hour ago, spikey said:

Fascinating.  Did they never try hosing down the carriage sides rather than bucket-and-brushing it? 

 

Whatever, seeing that shoddy being used prompts me to ask - what is/was the difference 'twixt shoddy and mungo?  Back in apprentice days, I was never sure which I was using ...

Shoddy is fibres from recycled yarns and fabric; whereas mungo is waste fibres from the actual spinning/weaving processes production.

 

That at any rate is the distinction, and I think its that way round!

[Nearholmer]

37 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

designed so you ran the train through, at 3 mph

Spent a good long time working with others on a project to design and fit an accurate line-side speed-indicator system for train divers, to help them get this right, because it is very hard to judge from the cab with a speedo that isn’t even “off the stop” and very notchy control. Lots of running up and down a siding at Strawberry Hill testing the system. What I don’t know is whether it was ever finalised and installed at any washers - being young at the time, I was off to a different job before then.

Getting the speed right or wrong by even a tiny amount made a huge difference to the result.

[slilley]

4 hours ago, doilum said:

Are there any shoddy mills lenft in the UK?

Yes when Michael Portillo on one of his Great Railway Journeys was in Batley he went a shoddy mill. My wife who is from Batley was pleased to see her homw town being recognised.

 

Simon