Collett Bow Ended Coaches - Knowing my Left from Right

[Jon Harbour]

I'm in the process of acquring stock for an OO gauge GWR 1930s layout and was looking at the Hornby bow ended Collett coaches. Please forgive my lack of knowledge, but what is the difference between left hand and right hand coaches? Thanks in advance!

[Neal Ball]

In a rake they are put together in such a way that the corridor is always on the same side. 
 

From London, I’m pretty sure it’s corridor side against the platform.

 

Hope that helps.

Regards, Neal.

[Neal Ball]

This is from GWR.org

 

A r/h van is a coach with the van at the right hand end when viewed from the corridor side. A l/h van is the converse.

[Jon Harbour]

Thanks! Makes perfect sense now! So that means that a rake of thee should be considered as LH Brake - Non Brake - RH Brake in order to maintain the corridor being on the same side.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Jon Harbour
Further expansion of question.

[gwrrob]

I put small stickers underneath mine with the diagram and hand for ease of identification although when cascaded down to other services they weren't always kept with the corridor together in the rake.

[Hal Nail]

They handed some non-corridor stock as well. I think we concluded in the Hornby thread it meant the off centre roof vents all lined up nicely!

[Miss Prism]

44 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

They handed some non-corridor stock as well. I think we concluded in the Hornby thread it meant the off centre roof vents all lined up nicely!

 

True for the Hornby 4-coach sets, but not true for any 2-coach B-set.

 

[Jon Harbour]

8 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

In a rake they are put together in such a way that the corridor is always on the same side. 
 

From London, I’m pretty sure it’s corridor side against the platform.

 

Hope that helps.

Regards, Neal.

 

That implies a practice of arrival and departure platforms I guess... Not sure it's always feasible, but possible I suppose. It certainly makes it a little more convenient for people when boarding the train. 

[Neal Ball]

14 hours ago, Jon Harbour said:

 

That implies a practice of arrival and departure platforms I guess... Not sure it's always feasible, but possible I suppose. It certainly makes it a little more convenient for people when boarding the train. 

The railway was very different in the pre-B.R. era in terms of carriage utilisation though.

 

If carriages were to arrive at Paddington, they wouldn’t always be used for the next service out. In a lot of cases they would have gone back to OOC first as different portions would be added / taken off.

 

Whereas today set A would arrive and would be used for the next train departing 1/2 hour later.

 

I would suggest you get hold of the carriage formation book that was published a few years ago. It lists all stock on all services. Fascinating to read..... but also very wasteful in terms of utilisation. Different times!

 

i will get the exact title for you.

 

Regards, Neal.

[Jon Harbour]

Very cool. It was a very different way of working, wasn't it? Thanks for the suggestion.

[Nick Gough]

8 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

The railway was very different in the pre-B.R. era in terms of carriage utilisation though.

 

If carriages were to arrive at Paddington, they wouldn’t always be used for the next service out. In a lot of cases they would have gone back to OOC first as different portions would be added / taken off.

 

Whereas today set A would arrive and would be used for the next train departing 1/2 hour later.

 

I would suggest you get hold of the carriage formation book that was published a few years ago. It lists all stock on all services. Fascinating to read..... but also very wasteful in terms of utilisation. Different times!

 

i will get the exact title for you.

 

Regards, Neal.

Is this the one Neal?

[Steamport Southport]

It was so the compartment windows were facing south with the corridor facing north.

 

For light and scenic reasons rather than where you entered the coach. If you are selling travel to the holiday resorts as a major feature then you want people to be able to see the scenery.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

The old timers would not have seen it as wasteful carriage utilisation at all, and would have told you that it was in fact extremely efficient; each train was made up individually according to the traffic needs, and there was room for additional strengtheners if traffic was heavy that day, or for extra coaches to be booked by parties of passengers, or for saloons to be attached.  So the loco never had to pull a train heavier than it needed to, making the timetable more robust and coal costs kept as low as possible.  They would have been horrified at the 'standing in the aisles in one direction, quarter full on the return leg' of modern operation, regarding it as inflexible and a poor way of serving the passengers, not realising that there aren't any passengers any more, there are only customers.

[Il Grifone]

On 19/06/2020 at 15:54, Jon Harbour said:

 

That implies a practice of arrival and departure platforms I guess... Not sure it's always feasible, but possible I suppose. It certainly makes it a little more convenient for people when boarding the train. 

 

It's based on Paddington No.1 platform. It ensured that the corridor was against the platform to assist loading/unloading and that the first class would be alongside the booking office so that the nobs would not have to walk too far.

[Hal Nail]

In the photo above the first two coaches look to have the compartment on the south (sunny) side but the third looks reversed. 

 

Is there any evidence how long, if at all, they tried to keep things consistent?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Jon Harbour]

On 21/06/2020 at 05:11, Il Grifone said:

 

It's based on Paddington No.1 platform. It ensured that the corridor was against the platform to assist loading/unloading and that the first class would be alongside the booking office so that the nobs would not have to walk too far.

 

If I recall from my last visit to Paddington station in 2017, platform 1 would have the corridor facing south. Is that correct? I remember getting a photo of my daughter with Paddington on platform 1!

[Coach bogie]

Several images I have, using the roof vents as a guide, show the corridor on the south side when leaving from platform 1.

Mike Wiltshire

 

[Il Grifone]

No. 1 Platform is next to the booking hall (Eastbourne terrace), on your left if you come from the Underground station and the Corridor would have faced south-west roughly.

[Coach bogie]

On 19/06/2020 at 11:33, Miss Prism said:

 

True for the Hornby 4-coach sets, but not true for any 2-coach B-set.

 

Unless it is an E129. The Soole image 107 in GWR in the thirties has both vehicles with vents in a matching line.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Stationmaster]

Hmm - so if a train departed from Platform 2 the corridor would be away from the platform side, and the same if it departed from No.4.  And it was quite a walk to any of the departure side platforms if somebody booked at the E Booking Office although the cab road was on the Eastbourne Terrace side with easy access to the main Booking Office.  Andt the corridor on the No1 Platform side would be wrong side for passengers observing the sea at Dawlish otr seeing the White Horses at eitjher I Uffington or westbury.

 

So I next checked the Carriage Working Programmes I have - discounting the 1941 issues as likely to be atypical.   The 1939 emergency timetable version definitely does not distinguish in respect of corridor side position and appears to be otherwise as the normal Pre-War layout of detail.  The Winter 1946 and Spring 1947 programmes definitely don't distinguish although by then they do show the 'A' and 'B' note referring to brake van orientation (i.e. to be marshalled brake ends outward).  there was nothing about the position of corridors in the 1936 General Appendix or in any amendment or supplementary letter to it  right up until it ceased to have effect 1960.   There was nothing in the previous reissue of the General appendix in 1921 but I don't have all the supplements to it so can't give a complete answer in respect of teh period up to the issue of the 1936 Appendix.

 

Although i don't know anyone who was working at either West London or Old Oak Common passenger yard in GWR days I did know somebody who had been a Shunter at various times in both from the early 1950s and getting corridors on one side or the other, or even getting the correct mix of left hand and right hand vehicles, was very definitely something they didn't do - they just marshalled vehicle types according to what the Coach Working Programme said and what was amended by notice or wire in order to try to get the right number of seats in the right places in the train. (In respect of extra vehicles that latter point definitely went back in to GWR times when extras were often specified by number of seats rather than vehicle type).

 

I suspect that when trains landed up with their corridor platform side at Paddington on Platform 1 it was purely the result of something being asked for specially and every effort was made to run the train from the booked platform.

[57xx]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hmm - so if a train departed from Platform 2 the corridor would be away from the platform side, and the same if it departed from No.4.  And it was quite a walk to any of the departure side platforms if somebody booked at the E Booking Office although the cab road was on the Eastbourne Terrace side with easy access to the main Booking Office.  Andt the corridor on the No1 Platform side would be wrong side for passengers observing the sea at Dawlish otr seeing the White Horses at eitjher I Uffington or westbury.

 

So I next checked the Carriage Working Programmes I have - discounting the 1941 issues as likely to be atypical.   The 1939 emergency timetable version definitely does not distinguish in respect of corridor side position and appears to be otherwise as the normal Pre-War layout of detail.  The Winter 1946 and Spring 1947 programmes definitely don't distinguish although by then they do show the 'A' and 'B' note referring to brake van orientation (i.e. to be marshalled brake ends outward).  there was nothing about the position of corridors in the 1936 General Appendix or in any amendment or supplementary letter to it  right up until it ceased to have effect 1960.   There was nothing in the previous reissue of the General appendix in 1921 but I don't have all the supplements to it so can't give a complete answer in respect of teh period up to the issue of the 1936 Appendix.

 

Although i don't know anyone who was working at either West London or Old Oak Common passenger yard in GWR days I did know somebody who had been a Shunter at various times in both from the early 1950s and getting corridors on one side or the other, or even getting the correct mix of left hand and right hand vehicles, was very definitely something they didn't do - they just marshalled vehicle types according to what the Coach Working Programme said and what was amended by notice or wire in order to try to get the right number of seats in the right places in the train. (In respect of extra vehicles that latter point definitely went back in to GWR times when extras were often specified by number of seats rather than vehicle type).

 

I suspect that when trains landed up with their corridor platform side at Paddington on Platform 1 it was purely the result of something being asked for specially and every effort was made to run the train from the booked platform.

 

[Il Grifone]

The corridor alongside the platform was an early 20th century idea, from the period when access to every compartment was considered important. As time went on the public was taught to behave properly and the idea quietly dropped. I believe the last handed sets were the 1920s Collett 57 foot coaches as modelled by Hornby (2 attempts - the second rather better than the first).

[Coach bogie]

4 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

The corridor alongside the platform was an early 20th century idea, from the period when access to every compartment was considered important. As time went on the public was taught to behave properly and the idea quietly dropped. I believe the last handed sets were the 1920s Collett 57 foot coaches as modelled by Hornby (2 attempts - the second rather better than the first).

The sets may have stopped as such but the brakes continued to handed. The later 1929 Riviera stock, the narrower cross country variants and 1935 Centenary stock had handed brakes. It is the composites that appear to have been dropped as handed in the 20's.

The Centenary stock Cornish Riviera was handed throughout, certainly in the early days. There are many images of the full train from above, showing all the vents on one side, the exception being the diners. I can assume it was no longer important to have the first at a particular end, especially as most dining cars had become composite.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Il Grifone]

The Centenary and Riviera stock were rather special cases. The 'upper crust' would have required more training* and these carriages would have remained in their sets.

 

*Or their complaints would actually have been listened to.