More model ideas

[Dunsignalling]

On 07/08/2021 at 16:23, Flying Pig said:

 

I think the reason is that Hornby have the suitable base coaches but the locos are largely by Bachmann and presumably the economics don't work for either company.  

 

But I don't think that is necessarily a barrier. It certainly doesn't seem to have been in the other direction.

 

Whilst they probably inherited the tools "almost ready to go" after Airfix went down, Bachmann must have sold many thousands of Bulleid coaches over the years, a majority of which must have spent most of their time being pulled by Hornby locomotives.

 

When first launched, Bachmann's only suitable "in house" candidates were the Lord Nelson, the Warship and the BR4 4-6-0, though they did subsequently add the N class mogul and more Standards. 

 

John

Edited September 8, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Mark Hamlin said:

What about some Banana vans? The SR ones look particularly nice. Would also love a BR cattle van so I can stop butchering the old Aifix kits

Or better still (IMHO) the earlier BR type that was derived from LMS practice. Like this....

 

John 

[Jack374]

Not wishing to stray too far off topic, but poor lighting is one of my pet peeves. Tom hit the nail on the head:
 

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

If the lights can hardly be seen, fair dos, but in the case of most modern stuff bad lighting stands out more than missing tiny details.

For me, having correct lighting is far more important than having every underframe component or valve or small wire handle, which can easily be added by drilling a hole, cutting a suitable shape, and gluing in place.

 

50 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

If folk really want lighting on existing good models, spend £20 on a lighting kit and support a cottage industry, rather than waiting years for a new loco, with lights. that will cost a lot more that the current versions, and may not turn out as good!

 

36 minutes ago, Monkersson said:

I fully agree, but if Bachmann were to retool to include prototypical lighting on their 66, it would come in a lot more expensive than an existing  model plus an aftermarket kit.  Buying these extra bits and pieces keep these small traders going, and they are a massive part of the hobby.

I disagree. Improved lighting i.e. a circuit board redesign and tooling mod - which would be done anyway for a newly tooled model - wouldn’t add £20 per model just for the lighting. The price hike is for the entire redesign and retool, which AFAIK has never been carried out solely to rectify lighting issues - improved lighting has been one of the multiple improvements of a retool. Don’t forget, you need to add your time to the equation. Even an hour of skilled work adding the kit, soldering it and other associated work can easily double, if not more, your quoted £20.

 

Completely agree with supporting cottage industry, however it sounds like you’re effectively asking manufacturers to halt development of lighting and either stick with flawed design (Bachmann shed) or not bother at all. Not likely, certainly from Accurascale.

 

Price hikes are inevitable, as consumers demand more detail, including lighting. I swapped some of my Bachmann sheds for Hattons versions, one main factor being improved lighting. I’m sure many did the same, but there will be others who stuck with their flawed lighting Bachmann models, and some who have Hornby 66s with no lighting at all. The hobby is a variety of perspectives, but Accurascale have carved their path very much at the top end of the market.

 

All my personal opinion, of course.

 

Oh! To keep things topical, a Northern 195/331 be grand, ta!

 

Jack.

[Dunsignalling]

Judging by where it has come in the Wishlist polls since Adam was a lad (well it feels like that). Picking the Swindon Class 120 as a first foray into things DMu seems a no-brainer.

 

Ditto the LMS Black Five as an early candidate in steam outline. Hornby have left theirs virtually untouched for two decades (give-or-take) and have repeatedly disappointed by failing to explore even the major variants. A "full-suite" approach (including Caprottis) of the kind Bachmann are doing with the Class 47 should create massive interest and the potential for healthy sales continuing long into the future.

 

John

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Monkersson said:

I fully agree, but if Bachmann were to retool to include prototypical lighting on their 66, it would come in a lot more expensive than an existing  model plus an aftermarket kit

 

Would it? If the kit is £10 and a drop in for their existing circuit board then why would it be dearer them doing it?

 

Putting markers in on the WIPAC models would be more expensive but where a circuit board upgrade is all that's needed it wouldn't be IMO.

 

10 minutes ago, Jack374 said:

has never been carried out solely to rectify lighting issues - improved lighting has been one of the multiple improvements of a retool

 

Yes although Bachmann have updated the circuits in the 40 whilst tooling Andanias from ends, which they didn't have to do. A good sign.

[atom3624]

Imagine if Bachmann 'did a 47' to the 66?

It would be better defined, probably look even better, but cost a small fortune cf. Hattons', which despite the AB fiasco is a superb beast - I've read of lighting issues, but am not familiar enough to fully appreciate this aspect.

 

Al.

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Monkersson said:

 

 

Dont get me started on those wanting lighting on steam loco's!!!!

 

Unless it's like this...... 

 

[TomScrut]

12 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

I've read of lighting issues, but am not familiar enough to fully appreciate this aspect.

 

There was the bug eyed ones not having the correct marker setup, and then IMO the main circuit boards are unreliable (I presume it is buffer stages going/not soldered correctly) but the majority of the issues are only found out with a 10 function decoder.

[Steamport Southport]

On 03/09/2021 at 13:14, mdvle said:

 

I suspect the Hattons 14xx model - which they only finally sold off not all that long ago after years of selling - means that there isn't all that much demand at the moment so a new model is unlikely for another several years (yes, many had issues with the mechanisms, but most of the market isn't online so would have been unaware of the issue so that didn't prevent many sales).

 

 

 

The DJM/Hattons 14XX was cr@p and well known to be. Well reported in the media, both mainstream and social. Many people also wouldn't deal with the manufacturer after being let down previously.

 

 

 

The Airfix/Mainline/etc model dates from 1976, yet was still miles ahead of the newer version. It also captures the look of the real thing far better.

 

 

How can you equate how well a model will sell if the only ones available are rubbish?

 

A bit like saying don't bother making a Class 21 or 29 as you can buy a Hornby version. Or a new Class 47, 25, etc.

 

 

 

No demand? Is that why there was a 110 page long thread on them, longer than most other threads in the RTR section....

 

 

 

Jason

[atom3624]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

My simple post was that I believed there is a need for modern-standard 14xx.

 

I want a 14xx yet won't touch any of the existing ones - too 'old tool, old school' for me.

 

Al.

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The DJM/Hattons 14XX was cr@p and well known to be. Well reported in the media, both mainstream and social. Many people also wouldn't deal with the manufacturer after being let down previously.

 

Also well reported, at least on here, were a bunch of people who were quite happy with their model - and that surprisingly was true of all of the DJM products - his biggest problem was consistency.

 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

How can you equate how well a model will sell if the only ones available are rubbish?

 

Because you take guesses, and acknowledge that most of the market aren't as connected and educated about the real thing as many on RMweb.

 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

A bit like saying don't bother making a Class 21 or 29 as you can buy a Hornby version. Or a new Class 47, 25, etc.

 

If company A had released (not announced, but actually released) a new tooled Class 47 3-years ago - so about the time for Heljan/Bachmann to have been starting their projects - people would be saying why bother.

 

Or the reason (that I don't always agree with) where the big poll about what models we want has a cut-off of anything tooled in the last 12 or so years - because if it has been done recently then the odds are duplication will impact sales potential.

 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

No demand? Is that why there was a 110 page long thread on them, longer than most other threads in the RTR section....

 

Given the bitching about DJM on this forum and his products, I don't think the page count necessarily means anything about the 14xx.

 

But you don't have to take my word for it - how about the Rapido UK staff (from Rapido UK Newsletter 3:

 

Quote

Wot, no ‘14XX’?

 

While we’re really excited about the above models – and we know that you will be too – there will be some who will unhappy that we haven’t added No. 1401 to the range.

 

As Mr Valentine tells the policeman, “There’s no pleasing some people!”

 

But why not? Firstly, Hattons only produced a ‘14XX’ a couple of years ago and though not perfect, it’s generally a pretty decent little model.

 

There are 2 problems with doing a 14xx at the moment.

 

The first is the above discussed flooding of the market by both the Hattons product and the Hornby re-release.

 

The second is that Hattons could redo the troublesome chassis/motor and bring a new one to market quickly if they so desired - much like some other ex-DJM products have been reborn under the EFE range.

 

But whether it is a rebirth or a newly tooled model I do think it will happen - just not now.  Several more years likely need to pass to build up a potential market again.

 

(and for the record I would be very happy to be proven wrong - I would like a quality 14xx myself - but I just think it is too soon).

 

 

[Monkersson]

20 hours ago, Jack374 said:

I disagree. Improved lighting i.e. a circuit board redesign and tooling mod - which would be done anyway for a newly tooled model - wouldn’t add £20 per model just for the lighting. The price hike is for the entire redesign and retool, which AFAIK has never been carried out solely to rectify lighting issues - improved lighting has been one of the multiple improvements of a retool. Don’t forget, you need to add your time to the equation. Even an hour of skilled work adding the kit, soldering it and other associated work can easily double, if not more, your quoted £20.

You cant cost your time/skill on improving your models unless someone else is doing it for you.  Surely its much better spending an hour doing it yourself to get what you want rather than waiting 3 years for a retooled version which may not live up to the hype?

 

Bachmann changed their first generation of 24/25 to add lighting, and the new models were more expensive (if I recall correctly).  

20 hours ago, Jack374 said:

Completely agree with supporting cottage industry, however it sounds like you’re effectively asking manufacturers to halt development of lighting and either stick with flawed design (Bachmann shed) or not bother at all. Not likely, certainly from Accurascale.

Im certainly not asking for development to be halted,  I would expect newly tooled models to have all the correct lighting displays (preferably with prototypical hues), but older, good, models don't need to be retooled just to add lights and nothing else.

 

 

 

 

 

[Monkersson]

20 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Would it? If the kit is £10 and a drop in for their existing circuit board then why would it be dearer them doing it?

 

Putting markers in on the WIPAC models would be more expensive but where a circuit board upgrade is all that's needed it wouldn't be IMO.

 

Bachmann is part of a large company as you know, and in large companies, small changes cost a lot of money!  The 66 would need redesigned circuit boards, modified tooling for the WIPAC's, extra components, testing and even literature alterations.

 

Every product has to account for itself and what may seem like insignificant changes to us consumers, can quickly grow arms and legs at a business level, and each of those arms and legs cost money!

 

The folk making the aftermarket kits are enthusiasts who aren't out to make a living from selling them.  If they were, they would cost a heck of a lot more.

[Monkersson]

20 hours ago, Jack374 said:

Price hikes are inevitable, as consumers demand more detail, including lighting. I swapped some of my Bachmann sheds for Hattons versions, one main factor being improved lighting.

The Hattons 66 is a great model, but is also flawed in the lighting for the bug eye versions, so to correct that you either have to be confident with soldering small electronic components, or buy an aftermarket circuit board.  

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, Monkersson said:

The 66 would need redesigned circuit boards

 

The redesigned circuit boards that somebody else can sell for £10 isn't going to make a big difference to them and go a long way to filling the gap between them and the Hattons one. It doesn't matter to me if they don't want to (having bought plenty of kits myself) but I just think in this case it's a pretty simple solution for them to get rid of their model's main weakness.

[Monkersson]

6 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

The redesigned circuit boards that somebody else can sell for £10 isn't going to make a big difference to them and go a long way to filling the gap between them and the Hattons one. It doesn't matter to me if they don't want to (having bought plenty of kits myself) but I just think in this case it's a pretty simple solution for them to get rid of their model's main weakness.

In overall terms its a simple upgrade, but it would cost a lot more money than you'd think to implement. 

 

 

 

[Covkid]

On 08/09/2021 at 18:56, Monkersson said:

I don't understand the fascination with lights on models that can hardly be seen on the prototypes

 

On 08/09/2021 at 20:25, TomScrut said:

 

If the lights can hardly be seen, fair dos, but in the case of most modern stuff bad lighting stands out more than missing tiny details.

 

On 08/09/2021 at 20:39, Markwj said:

Having seen a few with lights added and also having the Dapol O gauge I think it really adds something to the 08.

 

On 08/09/2021 at 20:53, Monkersson said:

They do on modern stock, and stock refitted with LED lighting, but on older stock you could hardly see the lighting, even in the dead of night.

 

On the majority of diesels you couldn't light both tail lamps at the same time - up until the 90's I think?  Earlier on some specific loco's (47/7 in push-pull service)

 

If folk really want lighting on existing good models, spend £20 on a lighting kit and support a cottage industry, rather than waiting years for a new loco, with lights. that will cost a lot more that the current versions, and may not turn out as good!

 

Ive disabled the lighting altogether on any of my stock that has it.  My layout is set in the early 90's with more stock with original lighting than WIPAC, just my personal preference.

 

IMHO lighting on non steam models has evolved over the last decade.  We went from incandescent bulbs to white LEDs - a retrograde step. In the last few years though the Bachmann 24s have shown what can and should be done, although I have an issue with "double tail lights" and am permanently isolating one of the pair on mine. Can't comment on the SLW 24 because I haven't seen one in real life, and similarly  assume the Accurascale diesel and electric models will be similarly realistic. In my view the preview of the Bachmann class 47 is what sets the bar for new D&E models and I have no doubt Accurascale will meet if not exceed it.  Sure there will be a price attached to the Bachmann 47 but two outstanding "multi sensory" features lay it on the line

Random activated twin radiator cooling fans wIth coordinated sound

The already very nice locomotive lighting which dims as the loco goes through the start sequence - simply stunning.

 

[atom3624]

Just watching a 'The Loco Builder' video whilst workers are refitting the bathroom ... 

Here's an idea ...

 

How about an LNER Jubilee coach set?

 

Done to A/S's standards, not just using whatever's lying around then painting it light grey ...

This could definitely be a winner !!

 

Al.

Edited September 10, 2021 by atom3624

[Invicta]

2 hours ago, atom3624 said:

Just watching a 'The Loco Builder' video whilst workers are refitting the bathroom ... 

Here's an idea ...

 

How about an LNER Jubilee coach set?

 

Done to A/S's standards, not just using whatever's lying around then painting it light grey ...

This could definitely be a winner !!

 

Al.

 

With Hornby having just done the Coronation Scot, then there certainly seems to be a market niche for those slightly specialist sets of coaching stock- although I do wonder if given the A4s in Hornby's range, anyone planning on doing a Silver Jubilee set might find themselves going head-on up against Hornby next year -it strikes me as almost inevitable that Margate will be at least thinking about  following the LMS set with one for their LNER streamliners...

 

On a loosely similar left-field theme. how about Royal train stock?

[InterCity80s]

14 minutes ago, Invicta said:

On a loosely similar left-field theme. how about Royal train stock?

 

I'd be up for a full rake of accurate Royal Train coaches and I'd imagine they'd probably sell pretty well. They cut across multiple eras (late 1970s to the present day), have been hauled by loads of different locos and geographically must have been to most places. They also look pretty smart.

 

Wonder if Hornby might already have something planned through for 2022 (and maybe LNER Coronation/Jubilee sets) given it's the Queen's Platinum Jubilee next year?

Edited September 10, 2021 by InterCity80s

[atom3624]

I was going to mention that other couple Harry and, erm ... perhaps not!

Retooled Royal Train, or simply updated current coaches, perhaps - for Margate.

 

I think A/S going Coronation /Jubilee would be brilliant.

Hornby do play their cards close to their chest, but I'm sure there would be sufficient 'internal information' to avoid duplication, surely?

 

Al.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, Invicta said:

...... On a loosely similar left-field theme. how about Royal train stock?

By left-field are you specifically implying the Great Western Royal Train ? ........ there have been many, many Royal Trains over the years !

 

The Silver Jubilee set ( and the other L.N.E.R. streamliners ) would be very welcome in some quarters - though I wonder how you'd get the inter-coach rubber diaphragms round first radius curves. The Beaver Tail observation cars would be more flexibly employed in their rebuilt form - and could take turn and turn about with the former Devon Belle cars : yes, I think that's something for Margate to think about.

 

Anyway, back to Accurascale ............. has anyone mentioned 4SUBs recently .... or J69s ......

[atom3624]

1st radius?

All higher-scale models are 2nd or higher nowadays.

 

Don't forget there's a similar application in the HST - prototype and 'production'.

 

Al.

[dj_crisp]

Just picked up on this thread and it's been an interesting read.

 

I recommend "night trains of British rail" for a flick through of lighting options in the BR blue period I'm sure the photos have a fairly long exposure but I found them interesting to compare loco lights to surrounding station lights etc.

 

Anyhow totally agree that manufacturers can up their game on lighting. I think I've replaced all circuits on my locos now with probably only a hattons ews old style lights remaining (mind you that one benefits from allowing a touch more light by opening up the light cover slots a little). I've often thought a simple 10 function circuit board with prewired resistors connected to a 21pin socket would do well in the after market sense. It would save me loads of time! 

 

Anyhow for me I haven't felt excited over most of the recent new tooled locos. I kind of feel what I have is good enough so other than Accurascale venturing into 37/4 to 37/7s then I doubt I'll be replacing many of my others. 

 

Coaches and DMUs however are a completely different matter! I can't wait to see the new 2b (and hopefully 2c!). A retooled 153 and 155 would really get my interest! And while not for me there are loads of modern stock not coated for.

 

Anyhow it's great to see manufacturers pushing the boundaries on what's possible. 

 

[mdvle]

On 09/09/2021 at 13:28, Monkersson said:

You cant cost your time/skill on improving your models unless someone else is doing it for you.  Surely its much better spending an hour doing it yourself to get what you want rather than waiting 3 years for a retooled version which may not live up to the hype?

 

But that assumes that the person in question has the skills and has the time - because time taken to learn that skill / do that job is time taken from some other (perhaps more enjoyable) part of the hobby.

 

On 09/09/2021 at 13:28, Monkersson said:

Im certainly not asking for development to be halted,  I would expect newly tooled models to have all the correct lighting displays (preferably with prototypical hues), but older, good, models don't need to be retooled just to add lights and nothing else.

 

If the model is truly up to current standards - and that frequently isn't the case - then just adding lights doesn't require new tooling.

 

Certainly Athearn in the US has been upgrading some of their older tooling (both the highly accurate and also their equivalent of "railroad") to add lighting effects, better sound options, some extra details, etc. without needing to go for a full retool.

 

But sometimes a new tool is the only way - whether because the company with the existing tooling is showing no interest in moving with the times or because the existing tooling simply can't do what the market today wants.