More model ideas

[SHerr]

44 minutes ago, wairoa said:

I know, absolutely, that I can speak for all model train enthusiasts everywhere when I say WE ALL without exception would dearly love to see a new high spec. Class 60 in OO.  

To my mind if we are talking about stealing from under Hornbys noses ( and from a D&E perspective why not as Hornby have displayed only minimal regard over the last 30 years plus to this area) then surely the most prosperous picking is the class 31? Hornby have missed so many opportunities here that the model deserves a good airing of Accurascale detail and variations. 
 

never had :-

31/1 refurbished BR blue, orig Railfreight and only 1 run of each headcode version of red stripe.

 

31/4 blue - plus other liveries (mainline?)

 

lots of versions that are staple 70s, 80s and 90s that have only had a couple of runs and all those Mazak repaired models waiting for a new version. 
 

To my mind this has the most commercial opportunity of the lot and would complement the 37 very well.

[KDG]

14 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Possibly.....

(Waits to incur the wrath of the SLW 24/25  fans.....)

 

I know nought of such beasts...never seen one in the flesh?. Own several of t'others.

[KDG]

2 minutes ago, SHerr said:

To my mind if we are talking about stealing from under Hornbys noses ( and from a D&E perspective why not as Hornby have displayed only minimal regard over the last 30 years plus to this area) then surely the most prosperous picking is the class 31? Hornby have missed so many opportunities here that the model deserves a good airing of Accurascale detail and variations. 
 

never had :-

31/1 refurbished BR blue, orig Railfreight and only 1 run of each headcode version of red stripe.

 

31/4 blue - plus other liveries (mainline?)

 

lots of versions that are staple 70s, 80s and 90s that have only had a couple of runs and all those Mazak repaired models waiting for a new version. 
 

To my mind this has the most commercial opportunity of the lot and would complement the 37 very well.

It's sad when some of those that are said to know about such things rate the Lima bodyshape better than the "improved " Hornby fullfat version, many of which have self destructed with mazak pestilence.  I have many, Limby railroad versions which I upgraded with the newer chassis when Hattons were flogging  them off cheap, but we still would like a version with lights and all wheel drive slash pickup in more recent standard liveries. 

[KDG]

Oh and an IHA curtain sider bogie steel wagon  please.

[Global]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

Don't lump me in with "WE ALL".

 

What's wrong with the Hornby 60?

As much as Hornby are off my Xmas card list, the only thing wrong with the current 60 is the lack of lighting functions (and it's way better than a Bachmann 66 on that front) - and coupler if using the kinematic mount.

 

Easily, still in the top 3 RTR 00 diesels ever made.

 

 

 

Bodywise I’d agree it’s pretty good but it usually suffers from Hornby’s inability to decorate anything correctly! 

[Global]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

AIUI, Heljan have already intimated that a revised Hymek is on the way. The existing one has migrated to Bachmann's EFE conglomeration.

 

Correction: The Hornby Ferry Van is EXTREMELY dated.

 

John

Does a Heljan revised model mean they’ll find something else to get wrong that they hadn’t already?! 

[newbryford]

10 minutes ago, Global said:

Bodywise I’d agree it’s pretty good but it usually suffers from Hornby’s inability to decorate anything correctly! 

 

I'm not too sure that a bit of errant paint warrants another manufacturer to make an alternate version...........................

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Global said:

Does a Heljan revised model mean they’ll find something else to get wrong that they hadn’t already?! 

What's wrong with their original Hymek?

 

It might lack a bit of detail, but I've never thought there was much else to criticise.

 

John

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Islesy]

10 hours ago, wairoa said:

I know, absolutely, that I can speak for all model train enthusiasts everywhere when I say WE ALL without exception would dearly love to see a new high spec. Class 60 in OO.  

Sorry, going to have to disagree with you there. Apart from the lighting functions (which I anticipate Hornby will change to 21 pin shortly, anyway), there is very little that the 60 requires. One can always find small areas of detail to improve, but that doesn’t translate into a commercially viable model, as a manufacturer will need to look beyond the initial (but limited) wave of ‘shiny new thing’ buyers.

For now, for me, the Class 60 is one of the leading diesel models currently available in 00.

[Global]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

I'm not too sure that a bit of errant paint warrants another manufacturer to make an alternate version...........................

I know some may choose otherwise, but I wouldn’t spend £200-300 on a loco just to repaint/correct it because the manufacturer can’t get it right in the first place.

 

So if Hornby can’t be bothered to get it right then for me that says there is a gap for an alternative manufacturer who will.

 

Obviously the easy answer is for Hornby to put a bit of effort in to get the liveries correct as the base model is, I agree, pretty good and probably one of their best. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Global

[Global]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

What's wrong with their original Hymek?

 

It might lack a bit of detail, but I've never thought there was much else to criticise.

 

John

Sorry, I maybe wasn’t too clear but it was a more general observation about Heljan models rather than specific to the Hymek!

 

The ‘revised’ part being that their models are usually different from the prototype as they’ve messed up the shape somehow! 
 

Anyway the plus side of that is, trying to get back on thread, is that it allows for someone to come along later and do them properly! 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Global

[Dunsignalling]

42 minutes ago, Global said:

Sorry, I maybe wasn’t too clear but it was a more general observation about Heljan models rather than specific to the Hymek!

 

The ‘revised’ part being that their models are usually different from the prototype as they’ve messed up the shape somehow! 

Like the original 33/0, which had the wrong shape roof.

 

The revised model corrected that but incorporated some (IMHO) rather clunky looking metal grilles that I liked even less, so I learned to tolerate the roof on my old one! 

 

I understand that's also been sorted on a subsequent iteration, so I may look again....

 

John

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[newbryford]

Hmm - I see a HST devotee has joined Revolution Trains.

 

More fuel to where a new HST is coming from?

[The Black Hat]

12 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Don't lump me in with "WE ALL".

 

What's wrong with the Hornby 60?

As much as Hornby are off my Xmas card list, the only thing wrong with the current 60 is the lack of lighting functions (and it's way better than a Bachmann 66 on that front) - and coupler if using the kinematic mount.

 

Easily, still in the top 3 RTR 00 diesels ever made.

 

 

 

I think your right, but this is then driving the debate / thoughts towards just what is on the market and available now, that is acceptable and what needs to be upgraded in line with the advances in sound and DCC lighting controls. This then, I would surmise, would be dependant on just how good the model is overall in detail and performance compared to others on the market, as well as how popular any upgraded model would be to replace the model of the prototype being done now. 

Seen in those terms a lot of the Hornby detailed diesel models turn out well. The class 60 is a fine model, detailed, heavy, performs well and does have lighting and scope for sound fitting. Equally so the class 67 holds its own, as well as having most liveries done by Hornby. Would people really upgrade their class 67 to a new one? I suspect not. I am perhaps one of the few that also think the class 31 is fine for what it is. The detail is good and the lighting can be fixed. Equally so the HST has been okay and apart from the coupling the new power cars are good. Demand has shown that this is something that is still wanted and the new HST that should come with stock too is likely to be a cash cow for Hornby if they can match the standards of competition, or get close to it, and beat them to market. Livery choice will also make people choose which HST set they go for. Where Hornby are vulnerable will be some of the limby stock and railroad. But then your into price territory and some will go for these as they work out cheaper. The obvious target is the class 50, where the same parts and toolings done for other engines have been modelled meaning that parts for this are already done. Will this come from the same source? Probably is my answer. 

While that might be Hornby, Bachmann have been exposed as their previous range included a lot of the staple engines people needed models of. The class 66 and Deltic have soon been picked off, with the class 47 having been retooled to protect that one. The class 37 too has been given competition. There might be a means of Bachmann to get a 57 from their retooled 47 but I think that the latter is fine with the model that is done at present. It fills the gap. Bachmann have staked out the class 69 too as a land grab, but this could be some time away. Bachmann are in the position where they can not retool all their range and given how popular their range was for years its clear others see their choices of the past as their future. Hence Accurascale taking on 37 and 55... with Mk. 2 stock to match. 

Other ranges might see things such as the class 58 looked at, but again, for what is available this satisfies demand. The various shunters out there are also covered well. taking on the hydraulics such as Western, Warship and Hymek are all possible, but do they have the scope needed? The main gaps in the market will be and still is units. Second gen ones will be the driving force as they can cover sectorisation onwards and fill the voids in and around privitisation - the size of this area of the market is now significantly bigger than many realise. Bachmann have done the 158 and 150 (which is safe for now) with the 170 to follow (land grab no. 2). Realtrack the 156 with the 142 to follow. Hornby have the 153. Ones to go for in the future will be the class 185 and perhaps the 180. The Voyager 220/221 and 222 will also be very much a good move. Beating Bachmann to the 170 and thus doing the entire 168/170/171 and Electrostar family is also another option. 

Yet accurascale has shown vision and boldness as much as tenacity in taking on the established companies. Doing the class 92 was interesting but is getting positive replies. As are things like the Manor and Chaldrons - that now show that everything is possible. This then can see Accurascale move towards other items in the range, but its clear they are taking advantage of shared parts. Thus is the Stanier standardisation such as Black 5, 8F a target? Do Mk. 3's enter the range as whole fleet of stock that is urgently looking for a model that does all thats wanted in the end... 

Thus, I think the diesel market is getting choosy over its options and the future will be a case of how much detail and control you can put into a model vs price. Thus will some people keep their current models rather than replace their entire fleet. I think many will keep what they have and use new ones as the star performers. But if your looking for what comes next then it will either be a popular diesel that needs full spec, a second gen unit, or a steam model done to DCC the next generation including sound and lights. 
 

[Wickham Green too]

12 hours ago, KDG said:

..... but we still would like a version with  ... all wheel drive .....

Wot a '31' with all-wheel-drive ? .................. that's more wheels driven than the prototype woz ! 

[Dunsignalling]

Commercially, diesel locos are getting to be something of a minefield. There are relatively few basic types, they've mostly been done at least twice before and the number of players now in the market brings a high risk that somebody else is already working on your latest pick.

 

I also think that units are the best potential growth area, but I'm not the only one who looks at most recent ones and thinks "that's a bit steep compared to locos and coaches".

 

I'm not going to offer any suggestions as to how to do it, but I really think that many of the 2-car sets now cost close to what I'd want/expect to pay for a 3-car. There really needs to be a simpler, cheaper way of making them without cutting back on features and I suspect that means basing them around something other than a conventional motor bogie or a low-profile version of a heavy centre-can twin flywheel locomotive mechanism. 

 

John

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

22 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I also think that units are the best potential growth area, but I'm not the only one who looks at most recent ones and thinks "that's a bit steep compared to locos and coaches".

 

I think the difficulty is how we compare them.

 

For example, you could legitimately argue (in my opinion) that the one that is often deemed the most over priced of them all, the Bachmann 150, is good value vs a pair of Hornby HST power cars. Similar RRP but the 150 is more complex in that it has internal lighting, interior and a kinematic coupler that also has electrical connections.

 

If you took a recent Bachmann loco, and a recent Bachmann coach and added the prices together you'd also get close. Using a 57 at £205 (I deliberately didn't choose the newly tooled 47 as I think that would be unfair) and pretty much any Bachmann coach at £60 gets you to £265 when the RRP of an unpassengered 150 is £295. The unit has internal lighting throughout and a complex coupling mechanism. Not £30 I know but in the same ball park.

 

What I do think is interesting however, is how Realtrack can do such a high spec one (dual motor, better lighting functions, dual decoder), in comparatively low quantities, for around the same price.

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I think the difficulty is how we compare them.

 

For example, you could legitimately argue (in my opinion) that the one that is often deemed the most over priced of them all, the Bachmann 150, is good value vs a pair of Hornby HST power cars. Similar RRP but the 150 is more complex in that it has internal lighting, interior and a kinematic coupler that also has electrical connections.

 

If you took a recent Bachmann loco, and a recent Bachmann coach and added the prices together you'd also get close. Using a 57 at £205 (I deliberately didn't choose the newly tooled 47 as I think that would be unfair) and pretty much any Bachmann coach at £60 gets you to £265 when the RRP of an unpassengered 150 is £295. The unit has internal lighting throughout and a complex coupling mechanism. Not £30 I know but in the same ball park.

 

What I do think is interesting however, is how Realtrack can do such a high spec one (dual motor, better lighting functions, dual decoder), in comparatively low quantities, for around the same price.

See, I look at it as two coaches plus the internals of a loco (the relatively cheap bit) plus the lighting and a pair of trick couplers. Without sound, £200 max?

 

John 

[TomScrut]

7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

See, I look at it as two coaches plus the internals of a loco (the relatively cheap bit) plus the lighting and a pair of trick couplers. Without sound, £200 max?

 

John 

 

What makes a loco so expensive vs a coach then? I don't really understand why a loco should be more expensive than the driving half of a 2 car DMU.

[Covkid]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

What's wrong with their original Hymek?

 

It might lack a bit of detail, but I've never thought there was much else to criticise.

 

John

The original Heljan hymek is a very nice model.  Improvements would be a decent radiator fan in the roof and improved lighting in my view

[Covkid]

14 hours ago, SHerr said:

To my mind if we are talking about stealing from under Hornbys noses ( and from a D&E perspective why not as Hornby have displayed only minimal regard over the last 30 years plus to this area) then surely the most prosperous picking is the class 31? Hornby have missed so many opportunities here that the model deserves a good airing of Accurascale detail and variations. 
 

never had :-

31/1 refurbished BR blue, orig Railfreight and only 1 run of each headcode version of red stripe.

 

31/4 blue - plus other liveries (mainline?)

 

lots of versions that are staple 70s, 80s and 90s that have only had a couple of runs and all those Mazak repaired models waiting for a new version. 
 

To my mind this has the most commercial opportunity of the lot and would complement the 37 very well.

 

I have a 31111 in a box in the loft which I haven't dared look at for five years.  If it is still in one piece and still works it will be backdated to a D555x number with arrows under the windows.

 

I really wish I had had some ofd the Hattons cheapies back then but 31s weren't and still aren't really on my radar.  Although as I have matured I sometime think I would like an LLG 31, but it doesn't fit with my fleet.   

 

So if Accurascale happen to mention the 31 as a new product in 2022, it would be hard for me to choose between a D numbered blue skinhead and an LLG refurb.  Please though, none of those ghastly "Nelson's eye" windscreens.  They disfigured the locos and looked awful    

Edited January 4, 2022 by Covkid
Additional

[Roy Langridge]

4 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

I think your right, but this is then driving the debate / thoughts towards just what is on the market and available now, that is acceptable and what needs to be upgraded in line with the advances in sound and DCC lighting controls. This then, I would surmise, would be dependant on just how good the model is overall in detail and performance compared to others on the market, as well as how popular any upgraded model would be to replace the model of the prototype being done now...
 

 

Spot on - many of Hornby's models just miss out on being great models, and would take little investment to get to the point of being great - whether that being a minor tooling tweak, improved electronics or better livery application etc. Even then, many of those "faults" are not issues for probably 90% of those that have bought them.

 

If anybody were to go up against these, those changes could come from Hornby very quickly to head off the competition and an already small market could become smaller.

 

The biggest complaint about Hornby seems to be a lack of liveries or minor livery errors - both of which cost very little to correct. Were Hornby even to just *announce* that these were to be produced, the market would reduce instantly.

 

Roy

Edited January 4, 2022 by Roy Langridge
typo

[atom3624]

Biggest complaint of Hornby Direct is poor packaging, in conjunction with 'bits falling off in transit'.

Al.

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

What makes a loco so expensive vs a coach then? I don't really understand why a loco should be more expensive than the driving half of a 2 car DMU.

But a mid-motor loco-style mechanism is total overkill in a 2-car DMU, as I pointed out in my earlier post. You just don't need a chassis powerful enough to shift fifteen feet of freight wagons under a railcar.... 

 

However, there's unfortunately something  of a tech fetish in RTR at present that often leads to unnecessary complication. It's proven technology that works well in a loco so it saves thinking about what might be more appropriate in a DMU...

 

The aftermarket Replica Railways MU chassis uses motors that almost certainly don't cost more than three quid each (to them), one at either end and they run perfectly well. For not all that much more, they could fit pro grade motors with nice little flywheels. The middle of the chassis is empty so you can hide all the electronics you crave under the floor (without jacking it up).

 

Retail price (last time I looked), is about sixty quid.

 

John

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The aftermarket Replica Railways MU chassis uses motors that almost certainly don't cost more than three quid each (to them), one at either end and they run perfectly well.

I was looking at one of those for my Cravens DPU, but even with a couple of vans for tail traffic they seemed overkill.

 

Nowadays lots of technology seems to have features added 'because we can', not that many are of use to more than a handful of end users.