More model ideas

[TomScrut]

26 minutes ago, reddragon said:

Multiple units are a big challenge and sales are weak. DMUs of the inter city / cross country type are an opportunity, even DeMUs as you can buy the coaches separately AC EMUs don't sell in volume, maybe a widely used unit such as a 319/769 might scrape it?

 

MUs are funny really. I think part of the issue is the stigma people have about the price of them. 2 coaches plus a motor is how it is seen whereas on newly tooled stuff the constraints of having a low profile motor drive makes a MU driving car probably more complex with a loco, and then a dummy at the other end and however many coaches. Look at a 5 car class 800 from Hornby, costs about £400, which is about what a HST power car pack and 3 coaches cost but the 800 is a better model and is a longer train.

 

I think part of it is that EMUs (other than mainline express ones such as 80X and 390s) are quite regional and people probably avoid them because of lack of OHLE. DMUs are far wider spread with BR ones being with all sorts of people over such a wide period of time. Look at the 158/9, it has had loads of liveries yet Bachmann have done 4 with their new tooling IIRC.

[Black 5 Bear]

Accurascale have scheduled noon tomorrow the 16th of December for a brand new announcement as was mentioned earlier.

Hopefully this will include the Manor loco update.

 

https://youtu.be/R9ZtS7YI4mQ

 

 

[reddragon]

47 minutes ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Accurascale have scheduled noon tomorrow the 16th of December for a brand new announcement as was mentioned earlier.

Hopefully this will include the Manor loco update.

 

https://youtu.be/R9ZtS7YI4mQ

 

 

Oh no, I hope it isn't something I like as otherwise I'll have to order it.

[cs233]

DMU's seem to sell, especially second generation and later ones, look at Bachmann with a completely outdated 150 with part of the coach filled with the motor and underframe errors on the 150\2 variant. Not to mention Realtrack seem to have sold a huge amount of 156 units. Cannot help think that due to people having modest size layouts that DMU vehicles of 2\3 coaches seem to make the most commercial sense especially if selecting a Class of unit that had many livery variations.

 

My suggestion would be:

 

153

150

158 (Still think the latest Bachmann release can be improved with its fairly modest interior)

185

 

For older units a 101 is sure to be a knockout seller.

 

[TomScrut]

9 hours ago, cs233 said:

Not to mention Realtrack seem to have sold a huge amount of 156 units.

 

Not suggesting they haven't but AFAIK they don't do massive runs and therefore just because they sell out doesn't mean they have sold enough for Hornby/Bachmann and the likes to be interested in.

 

9 hours ago, cs233 said:

My suggestion would be

 

Whilst I agree the 153 and 150 could be improved a fair bit, and I'll take your word on the 158, given how many haven't been done I think it would make more sense for somebody to do something not done recently/ever, such as the 185.

 

I also think the 180, 220 and 221 would do well if done again. The 180s have been all over the place in all sorts of liveries and are a nice looking train I think, also made a bit more interesting by the fact they are the only diesel hydraulic train that does 125mph in the UK. 220/221 have been pretty much everywhere except the south east excluding WCML into London, and the Bachmann XC ones fetch top dollar despite being old tooling which isn't DCC ready and with blacked out windows. They all however have the issue of being 4 or 5 cars, although HSTs sell well and Hornby don't seem to struggle moving 800s (which are the longest 5 car MUs on the network AFAIK)

Edited December 16, 2021 by TomScrut

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

MUs are funny really. I think part of the issue is the stigma people have about the price of them. 2 coaches plus a motor is how it is seen

 

 

As a comparison - using one powered and one unpowered vehicle - be it a 2 car MU, pair of power cars or loco plus coach.

 

Bachmann Class 150  - £295 - typically discounted to £250

Hornby HST power car pack - RRP £319 - typically discounted to £261

Accurascale loco (Class 37) plus Mk2 - £230. Typically no discount on A/S stuff unless you wait long enough, but that invokes FOMO.

 

 

 

 

 

No comparison really.

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

No comparison really.

 

How about a Bachmann 47 and a Bachmann mk2?

 

The 150 is overpriced IMO, so is a good example to use to argue MUs are expensive. The new 158 is similar money but far better.

 

My point was, that I see a lot of complaints on Facebook and the likes as if they expect a 3 car DMU to be £150 or something because it's like 3 coaches but will pay £150 for one loco. Generally I don't think MUs are expensive, it's just (like all things) certain ones are overpriced for what they are.

[TravisM]

3 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

The 180s have been all over the place in all sorts of liveries and are a nice looking train I think, also made a bit more interesting by the fact they are the only diesel mechanical train that does 125mph in the UK.

Sorry but they’re diesel hydraulic which caused huge amusement to ex BR lags working for FGW who remember thundering around in Class 52 “whizzo’s”, especially the stone trains out of Westbury.

[newbryford]

6 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

My point was, that I see a lot of complaints on Facebook and the likes as if they expect a 3 car DMU to be £150 or something 

 

FB is La-La Land when it comes to "sensible" discussions about prices. (and Sam's Trains)

 

[TomScrut]

9 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

Sorry but they’re diesel hydraulic which caused huge amusement to ex BR lags working for FGW who remember thundering around in Class 52 “whizzo’s”, especially the stone trains out of Westbury.

 

Sorry, you're right. I was more aiming at them not being diesel electric (the difference between diesel mechanical and diesel hydraulic is far more subtle than either to diesel electric).

[TravisM]

I can never understand why Kernow/Bachmann never did the centre coach for their Class 205.  It was possibly okay for the early versions in green but apart from the few (four I think) that remained two car on the Marshlink line between Ashford and Hastings, the rest were three car either early on or from new.

 

Once they came out with the BR blue, blue/grey and NSE versions, they really hamstrung themselves by not having the centre car.  I’m pretty certain that the sales would have been so much better for a three car Class 205

[newbryford]

Just now, jools1959 said:

I can never understand why Kernow/Bachmann never did the centre coach for their Class 205.  It was possibly okay for the early versions in green but apart from the few (four I think) that remained two car on the Marshlink line between Ashford and Hastings, the rest were three car either early on or from new.

 

Once they came out with the BR blue, blue/grey and NSE versions, they really hamstrung themselves by not having the centre car.  I’m pretty certain that the sales would have been so much better for a three car Class 205

 

Are you suggesting that Accurascale make the missing coach?

 

[TravisM]

Just now, newbryford said:

 

Are you suggesting that Accurascale make the missing coach?

 

Umm………….. nope 

[TomScrut]

4 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

I’m pretty certain that the sales would have been so much better for a three car Class 205

 

3 car is a good size too I think. More price efficient than 2 car and when mixed with 2 cars on a layout adds variety. I hope if Bachmann ever get round to doing a Northern 158 that it will be 3 car.

Edited December 15, 2021 by TomScrut

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

iThe 180s have been all over the place in all sorts of liveries and are a nice looking train I think, also made a bit more interesting by the fact they are the only diesel mechanical train that does 125mph in the UK.

I thought class 180’s were diesel hydraulic ?.. WR tendencies die hard.

Otherwise totally agree is class 180 is a good all round unit.. been everywhere except the Southern.

I don’t know why people don't like them, When on FGW I used them all the time and thought they were great. Granted GC they were getting a bit rundown.

 

A 180 (and 175) to me are perfect unit choices.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by adb968008

[Wolf27]

45 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

FB is La-La Land when it comes to "sensible" discussions about prices. (and Sam's Trains)

 

corrected for you Mick.

 

FB is La-La Land when it comes to "sensible" discussions about anything

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, newbryford said:

It wouldn't surprise me if they chose a Black 5 or 8F as the next steam loco.

He he he he…

 

Wouldnt that upset those coffee machines in margate. Wouldnt want staff there choking on Haribos.

 

I can see a few gaps…

 

The obvious one being something to shunt the Chaldrons, and MGRs.

 

 

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

 

I can see a few gaps…

 

The obvious one being something to shunt the Chaldrons, and MGRs.

 

 

 

Are you suggesting that A/S usurp the DJM J94?

Edited December 15, 2021 by newbryford

[adb968008]

13 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Are you suggesting that A/S usurp the DJM J94?

Not possible it usurped itself, self consumed itself, leaving just a stripped chassis.

 

But Tanfield and Bowes are home to all kinds of interesting beasts.

My thoughts are typically a wide net, starting with a Bagnall, or an RSH Ugly and end at a class 56 (i know) and a HST (lets not go there either)… 

 

A rebuilt Merchant Navy must be high on the picking list.

Ive heard too many rumours of Electrostar, but same two names always in the frame, but never happen.

 

but my personal hope…

 

i’m hoping for a nice 21st century unit.. failing that a 20th century one.

 

if its a wagon… bin liner…been hoping for it since the Cawoods were announced.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by adb968008

[Trainsandtravel]

I quite fancy a model of the New Stadler Flirts that are with Greater Anglea and soon Transport For Wales. I think these units would be amazing as a model and it would be nice to have a bang up to date unit. 

[wombatofludham]

Always amuses me when people assert "AC Electric multiple units don't sell".  How do we know?  The only RTR EMU that doesn't need a stabiliser rail is the Bachmann 350.  Given they entered service right at the end of loco haulage on the WCML, they are not that good a match for the current range of electric locos and so making any sales assumptions on that basis is a bit premature.  Apart from the Bachmann 90 all those 85s, 86s and 87s which seem to have sold in sufficient numbers to encourage their manufacturers to spend more money on new issues, don't really complement the 350.  It is an outlier.  By contrast, a 304, or 310, which ran alongside classes 85-87 would be attractive because it makes possible a layout with a WCML feel, and complements the locos.

More to the point, Britannia Pacific Models seems to be happily producing custom hand made coathanger EMUs at prices which make Bachmann look like Poundland (but which I consider value for money as an owner) - and has recently commissioned work for the Class 312 (of which I am now a proud owner) and the Class 310 (for which I have a build slot reserved) so if people like me are prepared to stump up north of £700 for a bespoke EMU with a coathanger, I expect HornyHelmann - or Accurascale (after the 80 class...) could make something and make a few quid out of it.

Meantime, come the spring, I'll still be wrestling with a DC Kits AM4 in the absence of any surprise announcements.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm sure people don't read things.

 

It was clearly stated it was rolling stock and non powered.....

 

 

 

Jason

[virginhst539]

Said it time and time again. If your going to do a EMU then its got to be either one of the 31* or 32*s. massive range of liverys, regions covered ect...

 

I have no doubt that what ever is shown at midday will be an exquisite model, now where's my wallet.....

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

MUs are funny really. I think part of the issue is the stigma people have about the price of them. 2 coaches plus a motor is how it is seen whereas on newly tooled stuff the constraints of having a low profile motor drive makes a MU driving car probably more complex with a loco, and then a dummy at the other end and however many coaches. Look at a 5 car class 800 from Hornby, costs about £400, which is about what a HST power car pack and 3 coaches cost but the 800 is a better model and is a longer train.

 

I think part of it is that EMUs (other than mainline express ones such as 80X and 390s) are quite regional and people probably avoid them because of lack of OHLE. DMUs are far wider spread with BR ones being with all sorts of people over such a wide period of time. Look at the 158/9, it has had loads of liveries yet Bachmann have done 4 with their new tooling IIRC.

But models of first generation Multiple Units don't need the tractive effort that low profile all-wheel-drive mechanisms potentially provide.

 

8-wheel pick-up, along with a flywheel-drive motor bogie of sufficient quality, sited within the guard/luggage compartments, with which all were provided, would be more than adequate for at least 4-car sets.

 

Saddling them with complex (=expensive) drive systems that models of more modern fully-open units require for cosmetic reasons is just unnecessary.

 

Example: the GWR railcars (Dapol and Heljan) represent technological overkill applied to provide haulage capacity several times what the prototypes could achieve, and running quality that could be attained by far simpler means with less compromise to the interiors.

 

Just because the manufacturers can do something, doesn't mean they always should.

 

John

Edited December 16, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm sure people don't read things.

 

It was clearly stated it was rolling stock and non powered.....

 

 

 

Jason

 

We aren't necessarily speculating about whats being announced today. I definitely wasn't!