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Baseboards from Insulation board


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I've heard of modelers using Kingspan (other manufactures of insulation board are available) to make their baseboards, but I have never seen it described or pictured.

 

So in the interest of making a portable exhibition layout the following questions spring to mind.....

 

I presume you then glue plywood to the side to make the "box", what glue would you use?

How do you join baseboards?

How do you attach legs?

How strong is the resultant construction, will it take O gauge loco's OK?

 

Cheers

JP

 

Edited by LNERJP
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Yes, you need a plywood (or MDF) surround, and possibly some ply or timber crosspieces as well depending on how you intend to form your landscape. Layouts always look better with some parts of the railway being above the surrounding land.

 

Unless the plywood extends below the foam insulation, the best way to join boards is hinges on each side. It used to be that you had to knock the pin out of the hinge and replace with a suitable size piece of wire or a nail. But I noticed yesterday in B&Q that there are now hinges available with a removeable pin.

 

You can fix the legs to the plywood surround. Probably worth reinforcing with some CLS timber offcuts. If the layout is not huge, you may be better providing a separate "table" for the boards to stand on.

 

All plenty strong enough for 0 gauge.

 

The main problem with foam insulation boards is the thickness below the track. It makes wiring and point motors more difficult to install and access afterwards if any problems. But with small servos now so readily available, I think that I would install them from above in a niche dug out next to the point and then cover over with an easily removable piece of plastikard hidden in the ballast.

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My method,  copied / modified / combined from others on the net.

 

Take a 50mm sheet of EXtruded Polystyrene, glue onto that, using non solvent adhesive from a glue gun, using the screwfix equivalent of sticks-like- s**t , more EX- P for any hillsides/  ground level changes.  Cut a small slot in each corner for a piece of Batten and for where you wish to fit alignment dowels.

Glue battens in. 

Cut 6mm ply to match land shape all round.  Glue on using the same glue,  screwing into the battens in the corners.

My exhibition  layout under construction, is built onto trolleys, with intermediate boards stored inside. I have seen legs hooked onto the outside of the ply,  or the layouts just put on trestles, which is probably the easiest solution. 

I then cover the foam hillsides with  pva / water/ pollyfilla coated J cloths,  to form a hard shell over the foam. 

Board alignment,  fit alignment dowels,  I use adjustable latches to clamp the boards together. 

 

 

 

IMG_20200420_204514.jpg

This is an end board under construction,  note I changed the design,  hence the screwed on ply panel on the front right. I've still got the long screws holding the ply in place while gluing on the front,  my long clamps were engaged holding bits of 12inches to the foot boat together at the time.  A scenic sub board will clip on the front to hide the ply.  

This next picture is to the left of the first with that scenic sub board clipped on. 

IMG_20200407_200330.jpg An overall picture of the layout at our open day last year,  the boards above are on the right hardly started. 

IMG_20190525_171119.jpg

Edited by TheQ
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3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Yes, you need a plywood (or MDF) surround, and possibly some ply or timber crosspieces as well depending on how you intend to form your landscape. Layouts always look better with some parts of the railway being above the surrounding land.

 

Unless the plywood extends below the foam insulation, the best way to join boards is hinges on each side. It used to be that you had to knock the pin out of the hinge and replace with a suitable size piece of wire or a nail. But I noticed yesterday in B&Q that there are now hinges available with a removeable pin.

 

You can fix the legs to the plywood surround. Probably worth reinforcing with some CLS timber offcuts. If the layout is not huge, you may be better providing a separate "table" for the boards to stand on.

 

All plenty strong enough for 0 gauge.

 

The main problem with foam insulation boards is the thickness below the track. It makes wiring and point motors more difficult to install and access afterwards if any problems. But with small servos now so readily available, I think that I would install them from above in a niche dug out next to the point and then cover over with an easily removable piece of plastikard hidden in the ballast.

 

If using the Screwfix or B&Q removable pin hinges I found out the hard way that they need to have a gap to get the pin in. As the whole point when using them for baseboard joints is flush fit at 180 deg (straight) you therefore need to raise them with something flat as a shim underneath. The alternative is removable pin hinges, theatre stage style, which are designed for flat fitting. The best supplier for these is Flints.

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I found using pink extruded foam that glueing wood to it with wood glue or solvent free fake no more nails worked pretty well, but that the same glue didnt make a good foam - foam join (I suspect it sealed over the top and bottom and no air could get into/vapour leave the middle of the joint. A low melt glue gun was pretty effective on the foam - foam bits though.

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36 minutes ago, brack said:

I found using pink extruded foam that glueing wood to it with wood glue or solvent free fake no more nails worked pretty well, but that the same glue didnt make a good foam - foam join (I suspect it sealed over the top and bottom and no air could get into/vapour leave the middle of the joint. A low melt glue gun was pretty effective on the foam - foam bits though.

 

Very similar experiences. Glue gun is my go to for foam to foam joints.

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My 00 gauge layout 'Crewlisle' is on 5 separate baseboards built 47 years ago.  Over the last 37 years it has been assembled/disassembled for many exhibitions & the baseboards are still as strong, flat & level as the day they were built.  And what miraculous material did I use - Sundaela!  Perhaps the main reason for their longevity is that the layout is in a spare bedroom.

 

The frames are 50 x 25 softwood; external corners are dovetailed, glued with 'Evostik Resin W' woodworking glue & pinned; inside stiffener joints are cross halving joints, glued & pinned; the external frames are NOT cross-halved but retain their full 50mm depth along their length to retain their maximum strength.  The Sundaela is 15mm thick & is glued & pinned directly to the framework without any plywood underneath or on top.  It has made cutting holes for motors, etc. & for inserting track pins easy.

 

If I was starting again I would probably use 6 or 8mm ply.  With Sundaela you require stiffening at about 300mm between centres, with ply about 500mm.  To build baseboards using 'Sundaela' boards you require to be a skilful woodworker to cut joints & accurate assembly of the framework.  These skills are in short supply these days!

 

Peter

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Thank you all for your replies, I'm now trying to weigh up the pros and cons of building a layout this way.

 

Pros

Biggest benefit I can see is saving on weight.

Easier to have a sculpted landscape .

 

Cons

As Joseph mentioned, not quite so easy to install point motors and wiring.

Not quite as cheap as I though if Kingspan is not suitable.

 

Anything I'm missing?

JP

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I've used celotex successfully, but part of the strength is the tin foil,  don't take it off just one side or you'll have a banana.  I tend to leave it on both sides for the baseboard itself. Take it off for scenic layers. 

 

Gluing, I glue and leave it clamped up for a week. It does take a long time to set. 

 

Point motors, you can cut a  4inch square hole from the bottom of the baseboard and glue in a 6mm thick piece of ply to mount the motor  on.   My preference is wire in tube to the back of the board,  mount the point motor or servo there , no grovelling under baseboards.. 

Poking a hole through foam to insert wiring isn't too difficult if you can get the aim right.

 

One advantage of foam is you easily get a square baseboard.

 

If I had to use ply, I'd use a laser cut kit,  they appear to be much lighter than a home made wood baseboard unless you are extremely skilled at ply cutting and design. 

I'm mightily impressed with Tim Horn laser cut baseboards, but since May the 18th he's taking a 4 month break from New orders as he has so many to catch up with....

One problem with laser cutters is they take their own time to cut,  there's nothing you can do to speed them up. 

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This is a very interesting topic as I will be starting my baseboard which is of a shelf type running around 3 walls. 

 

Does the styrofoam come in grey as well per the picture on the panel systems link above?

 

If the board is 1ft wide does this still need any frames?

 

How easy is it to cut?

 

Thanks

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7 hours ago, Chilly said:

This is a very interesting topic as I will be starting my baseboard which is of a shelf type running around 3 walls. 

 

Does the styrofoam come in grey as well per the picture on the panel systems link above?

 

If the board is 1ft wide does this still need any frames?

 

How easy is it to cut?

 

Thanks

 

The grey is replacing the blue apparently but still has the same properties. As for framing, have a look on some US sites or magazines. They generally do not frame at all but support it on a skeleton structure. I would think the main difference is that most of their work is built in situ and is not modular. If your layout is permanent, then their methods may be quite suitable for you, if it's to be portable then a frame would be desirable.

 

Cutting styrofoam is easy. A cut with a Stanley knife and snapped, or you get a pad saw that fits a Stanley knife and that works well, a bread knife or a jig saw on low speed.

 

John

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10 hours ago, Chilly said:

This is a very interesting topic as I will be starting my baseboard which is of a shelf type running around 3 walls. 

 

Does the styrofoam come in grey as well per the picture on the panel systems link above?

 

If the board is 1ft wide does this still need any frames?

 

How easy is it to cut?

 

Thanks


The grey version appears to be the same as the blue, as confirmed by John, above.

 

If your shelf layout is permanent, then a simple form of additional support and protection for the edge of the board might be a prudent addition.

Consider gluing a thin ply panel, deeper than the thickness of the foam, along the front edge to form a facia.

It won’t add much to the weight of the board.

This will not only provide added rigidity, but it’ll also prevent the edge of the board from getting damaged or worn away over time.
This facia will also provide a surface for mountIng switches, indicator lights, control panels or sockets (e.g. DCC/DC handset sockets) etc.
 

The number of shelf support brackets and the thickness of the foam board will also have a bearing on how much, if any, extra longitudinal support might be needed. 
The foam is quite rigid, but I wouldn’t skimp on the number of shelf supports.
 

Apart from a saw and a sharp knife, a hot wire foam cutting tool might be useful.

Unlike expanded foam, with its horrible beads, extruded XPS foam boards can be landscaped with surform tools, although it will get messy.

 

Another consideration is wiring and electronic modules.

If a plywood frame, or facia are used, or if other timber supports are involved, consider mounting as much of the wiring under or on the wooded surfaces, as possible.

Similarly, mount any electronic devices or modules to the frame, or facia.


 

.

 

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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Thanks for the replies.

 

The layout is as follows, the thin bits being 1ft Width (the bottom station will be a 1ft width so that line can be ignored it will go straight across), the corners being 3ft by 3ft length before it meets the 1ft bits and the top station being 30 inches width tapering down to 1ft.  All points will be motorised (MP1's) via a z21 DCC system.

 

I was think of brackets every 1 foot but that maybe overkill? 

 

Is styrofoam that strong and rigid, apologises for my ignorance?

 

 

1394772061_ChrismontJune2020.jpg.b7fd315153114ef2147e788926cdfc38.jpg

 

  

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10 minutes ago, Chilly said:

I was think of brackets every 1 foot but that maybe overkill? 

 

Only guessing, but in the region of 300, 400 or 500mm sounds about right, unless you use some longitudinal support, in which case the brackets could be spaced further apart.

Others may have a different view.

 

15 minutes ago, Chilly said:

 Is styrofoam that strong and rigid, apologises for my ignorance?

 

Make sure it's the high density, construction grade stuff, intended for insulation.

It's pretty rigid if sensibly supported and not overloaded.

 

.

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There will not be much in the way of buidings etc, the heaviest load will be where the trains are parked in the sidings, say  5 max top and 4 max bottom.

 

Sounds like thin battens along the the lengths sitting on brackets may suffice, edged with very thin plywood.

 

I was thinking https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/25mm-x-38mm-blue-treated-roofing-batten-price-per-linear-metre.html?msclkid=51e56ffc6c941230e94a310ccdb078f7&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=[Main Shopping] [Catch All] PLA [18.08.14] [LP]&utm_term=4576785871088784&utm_content=All Products

 

Sorry Ron - for whatever reason didn't see your pictures above they didn't load - no idea why?

 

I think that is what I am looking for :D

 

 

 

Edited by Chilly
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The bottom left and right ones look straight forward, possibly the left one was what I envisaged......but the right does give length strength.

 

Not sure which one would be best for mine in view of layout could be a combo? Left one lots of brackets right one very few hmmmmm

 

Where did you get the racking from?

 

Can the track still be nailed securely to the board as this will be a permanent installation.

 

We I get round to ballasting the track is there any preparatory coating required to its surface?

 

Thanks  

 

 

Edited by Chilly
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2 hours ago, Chilly said:

Where did you get the racking from?

 

Can the track still be nailed securely to the board as this will be a permanent installation.

 

We I get round to ballasting the track is there any preparatory coating required to its surface?

 

 

Sorry, they're not my photos.

 

I believe you can pin track to the extruded foam, but I haven't tried that myself.

Gluing would be better, possibly using a roadbed...cork or foam (e.g. Woodlands Scenics or DCC Concepts foam roadbed).

I would paint the whole surface with a base coat , once any landscape profiling has been carried out, before doing anything else.

 

 

.

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For those of you who are keen to use Kingspan for baseboards, a neighbour reminded me yesterday of a company that I have used before when we renovated our cottage: Seconds of Presteigne. He actually delivers there for Kingspan.

Price is about 50% of ordinary builders' merchant price.

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Or if, post lockdown, you are planning to come to France, you can get non-branded extruded PS board for what seems to be a much lower price than branded board in the UK.

 

I got 1200 x 600 x 40 mm board for (IIRC) €3.40 per sheet - around £3.  Bounded on all sides by 10mm ply, going into its third year and no signs of any movement.  I used PVA to fix the ply to the foam board and backed this up with a couple of 100mm screws down each side - probably totally unnecessary.  The screws don't bite into the foam but do act as metal bars to hold the board in place.  

 

The only drawback so far - a mis-positioned soldering iron ate into the surface in milliseconds.  Easily filled however.   

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