Il Grifone Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) Baker gear wasn't common (existent?) this side of the pond (something to do with loading gauge, I understand), so I'm not very conversant with its operation*, but I gather the motion operates the same way as Walschaerts. It's usually modelled in mid gear so that the radius bar/valve rod does not move. It has to be somewhere and is going to be wrong most of the time anyway (The Dublo 4MT is unusually set in reverse gear.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_valve_gear * The GWR preferred Stephenson gear set between the frames out of the way (see below). Edited June 27, 2020 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 Many years ago there was an article in the model press describing an S gauge model (an Ivatt tank IIRC but certainly something similar) with operating reversing gear moving the radius rod in the expansion link as appropriate. I suspect it only moved from full forward to full reverse, as altering the cut-off would be complicated. I don't recall this being copied (It probably was, but...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) On 26/06/2020 at 16:17, The Johnster said: Many thanks Honest Tom! The Bagnall’s nose is spot on, and the sides not far out but of course Cyclops (her nameplates arrived this morning) has more doors, and until I source a jackshaft drive chassis for her, is of necessity a de or dh. Her headlight still works! She’s a Bagnall for my purposes from now on; I may remodel the deltic windows at some point. She goes like a stabbed rat on acid, but will run slowly driven with care! I’ll have nowt said against Rovex Black Princesses, my first train set and the loco that proved that 2-rail 00 was viable, the progenitor of all 4mm RTR locos. Perhaps a better prototype could have been chosen; SpamCans were in existence in 1949, and Triang eventually cottoned; the choice of the very long Princess Royal class is strange, though in proportion with the (dire) 6” alleged LMS coaches. The next choice, the Jinty, was inspired! I've said my surmise is that the pre-war Trix 'Princess' was copied by Rovex (The dimensions are very similar) and Trix also had short coaches (and 13½" radius curves). Princesses still existed in black livery at the time. Crewe was very fond of painting locomotives in BR mixed traffic livery at the time (circa 1950) (I can't think why ). They could have done a shorter Gresley (again copied from Trix) or a Bulleid Pacific, but why they chose this one is lost in the mists of time. (The designer had one at home?) 2 rail was already well proven by 1950. Trix had been all insulated (double two rail 0since 1935 and Continental makers were already making two rail systems. A stable plastic was required for the mouldings. Early Rivarossi models are bakelite (warp free but brittle and not very good at taking detail). Edited June 27, 2020 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 Very few things have a single source, and there is usually a trend with various designers and manufacturers working towards something which, for whatever reason, is an idea whose time has come. Commercially viable 2-rail OO and HO were the result of improved plastics moulding technology allied to increased disposable income. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted June 27, 2020 Share Posted June 27, 2020 9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: You get the Jolly Boys Outing.... I believe they used 47606 as it was the number quoted in one of the magazines at the time as the "legendary" lined black Jinty. I've never seen any evidence that such a beast existed. 47606 was just an ordinary black jinty. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/r/rickmansworth_church_street/ Jason Not even vac fitted as I recall, so not prototypical for all those station pilot and branch passenger duties it's been used for over the past 65 years either. I've said before that I think it would be quite fun to see one of the preserved examples lined out and numbered as per Triang. As an aside, Rickmansworth looks to be a more interesting than average branch terminus to model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR18901910 Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 14 hours ago, cypherman said: Hi Blackthorn. There is at least one green Princess for sale on Ebay at the moment with full valve gear. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIANG-LOCO-TENDER-PRINCESS-ELIZABETH-46201-433/184336258983?hash=item2aeb4c17a7:g:QqMAAOSwCf9e73EH I happen to own one of those models, Unfortunately, it's a non-runner and it's most likely to be a static display model. However, I am gonna give it a new identity in LMS guise and name it Princess Meghan after Megan Markle. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 28, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2020 15 hours ago, Fat Controller said: There were (possibly still are) some Brush/ Bagnall 0-4-0s at the former Steel Company of Wales plant at Port Talbot:- https://www.philt.org.uk/Industrial/PT/i-w8QjW4x I'd forgotten those, despite their being only up the road! You can certainly see the Bagnall heritage in the bonnet shape and the side doors. These locos are much larger than the BR loading gauge will allow. Some were still in service not that long ago and may still be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 28, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 28, 2020 2 hours ago, PatB said: I believe they used 47606 as it was the number quoted in one of the magazines at the time as the "legendary" lined black Jinty. The first Triang Jinties were also 47606, and were in plain black with an engraved unicycling lion emblem similar to the one on th Rovex Princess' tender. The lined version did not IIRC appear until the second type of tension lock coupling, which I think was 1960, the unicycling lion being replaced by a ferret and dartboard at the same time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 15 hours ago, rockershovel said: Very few things have a single source, and there is usually a trend with various designers and manufacturers working towards something which, for whatever reason, is an idea whose time has come. Commercially viable 2-rail OO and HO were the result of improved plastics moulding technology allied to increased disposable income. The original Rovex was a one-off lot of 200 (IRC) sets made for Marks and Spencer so economy was the watchword. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 On 27/06/2020 at 11:11, Fat Controller said: There were (possibly still are) some Brush/ Bagnall 0-4-0s at the former Steel Company of Wales plant at Port Talbot:- https://www.philt.org.uk/Industrial/PT/i-w8QjW4x Quite possibly this was an inspiration as well. I recall in Pat Hammond's history of Triang, he suggested that they deliberately kept a lot of their prototypes ambiguous for maximum appeal - he points out that the Transcontinental Baltic tank bears a resemblance to engines from South Africa, India and New Zealand while not being quite any of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 1 hour ago, HonestTom said: Quite possibly this was an inspiration as well. I recall in Pat Hammond's history of Triang, he suggested that they deliberately kept a lot of their prototypes ambiguous for maximum appeal - he points out that the Transcontinental Baltic tank bears a resemblance to engines from South Africa, India and New Zealand while not being quite any of them. I believe it's supposedly a NZ prototype, but as you say not quite. I gather there is a gauge problem for a start! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 As this thread has already wandered a bit 'off topic'! I don't feel too bad about adding another locomotive to the original query. The 0 gauge* Lima 0-4-0 diesel shunter, which has the motor bogie from their larger, mainline diesels (UK and continental outline). Any ideas, possibly continental, considering the lower, rear windows in the cab, it's underframe suggesting electric or hydraulic transmission and the fact it was made by an Italian manufacturer! *saying 7mm scale could be pushing the realms of reality too much! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 10 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said: As this thread has already wandered a bit 'off topic'! I don't feel too bad about adding another locomotive to the original query. The 0 gauge* Lima 0-4-0 diesel shunter, which has the motor bogie from their larger, mainline diesels (UK and continental outline). Any ideas, possibly continental, considering the lower, rear windows in the cab, it's underframe suggesting electric or hydraulic transmission and the fact it was made by an Italian manufacturer! *saying 7mm scale could be pushing the realms of reality too much! It's a American Plymouth Switcher. They really did get everywhere. They did them in three scales/gauges (N/H0/0) but I had the N gauge one and it was far too big, must have been nearly TT. Made a decent freelance narrow gauge model though. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Didn’t Craigshire have a substantially over-Scale Kemtron diesel switcher on its roster? Regarding Baker valve gear, I’d assume that it is all part of the general tendency of US locos to be “big in the beam” around the cylinders, because they don’t have to provide platform clearance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 42 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: It's a American Plymouth Switcher. They really did get everywhere. They did them in three scales/gauges (N/H0/0) but I had the N gauge one and it was far too big, must have been nearly TT. Made a decent freelance narrow gauge model though. Jason Interesting, it doesn't look anything like the Atlas 0-6-0 Plymouth shunter! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 It's one of the 'Plymouth Shunters' I mentioned before. A comparison with the real thing(s) is here: https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01DsjbrQ1ixUS3k6qBPCVPhswq7Bw:1593434702678&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=plymouth+shunter&client=firefox-b-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjP2LPrhqfqAhUJmIsKHY_-DKUQsAR6BAgHEAE&biw=1296&bih=666 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 1 minute ago, jcm@gwr said: Interesting, it doesn't look anything like the Atlas 0-6-0 Plymouth shunter! Plymouth was the manufacturer, they made them of all shapes and sizes including narrow gauge. This is the closest I can find. I don't know whether they did a four wheeled version. https://www.hattons.co.uk/17218/bachmann_usa_60040_mdt_plymouth_diesel_loco_in_industrial_red_with_yellow_stripes/stockdetail.aspx Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Plymouth was the manufacturer, they made them of all shapes and sizes including narrow gauge. This is the closest I can find. I don't know whether they did a four wheeled version. https://www.hattons.co.uk/17218/bachmann_usa_60040_mdt_plymouth_diesel_loco_in_industrial_red_with_yellow_stripes/stockdetail.aspx Jason And that looks like the 7mm Atlas version, but not much like the Lima! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 30 minutes ago, rockershovel said: Didn’t Craigshire have a substantially over-Scale Kemtron diesel switcher on its roster? Regarding Baker valve gear, I’d assume that it is all part of the general tendency of US locos to be “big in the beam” around the cylinders, because they don’t have to provide platform clearance. British platforms and the restricted loading gauge are almost certainly the reason for 00 in the first place. The original Bing Table Top Railway was half 0 scale (to the limits one could talk about scale in 1923). Being German they were on the generous side (often said to be get the 'works' in but that is only part of the reason). Comments to this effect got the reply, "They are to 4mm scale" and the rest is history. The gauge was 16mm/⅝" (hence the 'Half 0' - one talked of gauge rather than scale back then), but it has since grown to 16.5mm. The different construction of American stock versus British (centre beam/ outside solebars) favoured a wider gauge so American 00 is a tad over size at 19mm. Because of the low platforms the resulting overhang of cylinders etc. did not really matter, so H0 became the norm. Continental manufactures also did not have the platform problem, but some (notably Rivarossi) used 1:80 (or something in between. Wandering off topic is an RMweb tradition.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 Just found it! While looking for pictures to link to, I found a link to this RMweb thread rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80622-upgrading-a-lima-o-gauge-diesel-shunter/ which then suggested it was based on this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Class_Kof_lll Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said: And that looks like the 7mm Atlas version, but not much like the Lima! In what way? This one doesn't have the handrails. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 It hadn’t occurred to me that the Tri-Ang Transcontinental 4-6-4T had a NZ prototype, but I could see it, now you mention it. Regarding US stock being over-width to gauge, Lionel and other US O27 and “traditional sized” O Gauge stock is actually built to a scale of around 1:53, which means they are actually built to a gauge around 5’ 6” - the K Line “Big Boy” is actually 1:58 scale, 32mm gauge which is 6’ but STILL gets away with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: In what way? This one doesn't have the handrails. Jason Because that's the H0 version, I'm talking about the 0 gauge version! Check the info in my last post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 18 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: In what way? This one doesn't have the handrails. Jason I think he means this one: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) On 20/06/2020 at 23:17, cypherman said: Hi all, Just bought one of these to restore. Was wondering if it is based on a real locomotive. If so which one. Reverting more-or-less to OT, I’ve never seen this in clockwork form, but suddenly there are two on eBay! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRI-ANG-RAILWAYS-CLOCKWORK-MODEL-R254-0-6-0-ST-LOCO-CHASSIS-RARE-LATE-EDITION-/303311889771 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tri-ang-R255-Clockwork-Saddle-Tank-with-Key-And-Oil-Early-Rare-Model/193519154000?hash=item2d0ea3f350:g:mzkAAOSwDSper~X1 Edited June 29, 2020 by rockershovel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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