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Model Design Errors


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On 26/06/2020 at 14:28, Ian J. said:

2. My workings being if it takes an hour to run through the basic checks (and it really shouldn't take much longer than that) every couple of weeks, at say a professional like rate of £50 per hour, that's maybe £75 a week, give or take and remembering that employer's tax and NI have to be taken into account. £75 a week for a set of basic checks shouldn't add even 1.0% to a budget of £100k.

 

3. I am not, and have never claimed to be, inside the industry (I think I may have mentioned that in my original post, but can't see it right now). I am not even in any production industry.

 

Point 2.  If that is a professional rate then you are in the wrong profession.  Furthermore is that “professional” kept in a box on a professional zero hours contract patiently waiting for their hour’s worth of fee to check over a cad image?

 

Point 3.  That much is clear.   

 

Darius

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2 hours ago, Graham Heather said:

Probably the biggest reason I chose not to model my local railway scene.

Really too many people that have opinions have trains from their local area.

Modelling UP downunder.

Graham.

I have found visitors to exhibitions love seeing a model that attempts to be a model of a place they know. In my travels with Little Aller Junction it was always well received with no negative comments, even at the Exeter show. Yes it was only a caricature but everyone who knew the area,  especially BR drivers who drive through there, seemed to be genuinely enthusiastic about it. The only time anyone pointed out a fault was a BR train catering manager who told me I had the wrong type of coach next to my catering coaches.

 

Although this has drifted off topic I would say modelling well known locations is a great thing to do and you will receive far more love than criticism at exhibitions. Everyone seems to happily accept that compromise has to be made, including tunnels that just shouldn't be there.

 

IMG_20190427_095934_copy_1824x1368.jpg

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On 26/06/2020 at 10:00, MJI said:

Just got to make this point again.

 

In the past the crudish models looked like what they were supposed to.

 

Old Triang, Some Lima looked more like what they are than more modern stuff from Bachmann and Hornby.

 

Look at the 31?

 

I have been modifying a lot of Mark2 models recently and the most Mark 2y model I have used are the old Triang TSO and BFK. Glazing is inset, the door trims a bit over done, the vents just blobs, but with work and new window frames they can pass muster with newer models.

 

Lima profile not quite right, Airfix the bottom of side profile, Hornby 2E too many small inconsitancies to bother with compared to Airfix off Ebay, Bachmann 2F price so too expensive to modify.

 

 

I would just like to add to this, Durability. . . The old Triang, Airfix, Hornby stuff you are using is HOW old ? Been played with and well used but can still be worked in to something half decent. I like taking old Lima Locos and breathing new life into them. How Many of these complicated, detailed,. Fragile modern models will be around for the same amount of time and be more than a glorified paper weight ?  Wi bits missing !

 

 

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11 hours ago, Mattc6911 said:

 How Many of these complicated, detailed,. Fragile modern models will be around for the same amount of time and be more than a glorified paper weight ?  Wi bits missing !

 

 

Well, that depends on how careful you are with them in handling. Yes, bits can always be broken off, but they can also not be broken off. I find that it's a good thing to "learn the model" so to speak, so that you don't break it so easily. Owning some detailed American locomotives with boxes that don't make sense for them, I do just that.

 

In terms of motors and running, maybe a good rule of thumb would be to always anticipate (and prepare for) a potential failure? The Reverend Awdry has written about that sort of thing, and that was around 60 years ago. Surely we could do the same?

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16 hours ago, Mattc6911 said:

 

 

I would just like to add to this, Durability. . . The old Triang, Airfix, Hornby stuff you are using is HOW old ? Been played with and well used but can still be worked in to something half decent. I like taking old Lima Locos and breathing new life into them. How Many of these complicated, detailed,. Fragile modern models will be around for the same amount of time and be more than a glorified paper weight ?  Wi bits missing !

 

 

I’ve seen plenty of supposedly robust Lima and even the basic Smokey Joes trashed with buffers, chimneys and bits of bodywork broken off!

I’ve got Bemo models of 80’s vintage that were so good they still use the same moulds today. The plastic is just like that in Hornby’s modern locos in that it’s going to snap because it’s thin to get the detail. They are in excellent condition, the usual air pipes etc occasionally fall off but they certainly don’t disintegrate if looked after.
So they will last just fine and they can be played with by kids if they are simply told the difference between toys and models so they know they can break if treated roughly. 
If a model is poorly designed in materials choice or construction it will fail even if handled with care so there’s no association with fine detail making models less durable but they will look tatty faster if treated like a throwaway toy. 
Ian’s point in the thread is about prototype replication errors not the durability of details etc. Realistically I think while a worthwhile aim errors will persist because of the abundance of information often confusing the issues, necessary secrecy during development as the market gets more competitive and as said above even laser scanning can struggle with detail and consequently the end result still has to be  adjusted by a human. 

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Just now, PaulRhB said:

Realistically I think while a worthwhile aim errors will persist because of the abundance of information often confusing the issues, necessary secrecy during development as the market gets more competitive and as said above even laser scanning can struggle with detail and consequently the end result still has to be  adjusted by a human. 

Good summary IMHO

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8 hours ago, TrainMan2001 said:

Well, that depends on how careful you are with them in handling. Yes, bits can always be broken off, but they can also not be broken off. I find that it's a good thing to "learn the model" so to speak, so that you don't break it so easily. Owning some detailed American locomotives with boxes that don't make sense for them, I do just that.

 

In terms of motors and running, maybe a good rule of thumb would be to always anticipate (and prepare for) a potential failure? The Reverend Awdry has written about that sort of thing, and that was around 60 years ago. Surely we could do the same?

You need the delicate hands of a micro surgeon to stop modern RTR disintegrating. My first "Super detail" loco a Hornby MN from maybe 20 years ago regularly shed footsteps as it rumbled around the layout and spent most of its time in the display cabinet while Wrenn WC locos hauled the trains.  Subsequently I replaced many of the plastic detail parts with replacements soldered up from brass and with a total ban on handling it has become a useful loco, however the recently bought Spam can has the same issue.  Old RTR needed detail parts added. New RTR needs detail parts replaced.   Quite a major step sideways in 60 years.

In Rev Awdrey's day you could keep a spare motor or two by to cover 80% of your fleet. Nowadays you need to buy two locos. One to use and one for spares.  That's not even a step sideways.

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8 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

You need the delicate hands of a micro surgeon to stop modern RTR disintegrating.

I agree. I bought one of the superb Heljan Class 128 DPU's, and had to glue half the underframe equipment back on that I had knocked off whilst opening it up to fit a DCC decoder.

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The reverse side of this coin was Hornby Dublo diecast locos that would cause damage to the room if they were hurled across it (not that I've ever seen this done, but they were pretty much atom bomb proof if you sheltered them from the original heat blast).  Nobody wants to go back to that sort of crudity or lack of scale, and I reckon Hornby have got it about right, as have the other major RTR players, in supplying the models with delicate bits to be put on by the customer as his choice.  It's a compromise that works; 'scale' types can fit the bits and handle their models like Ming porcelain, 'trainset' types (no offence intended) can run the models out of the box quite happily, and 'collectors' can enhance the resale value by being able to state when selling that the model is 'MIB' and has detailing packets unopened; everybody's happy.

 

Well, mostly.  I've had a few issues with bits coming off a Hornby 42xx, the later tooling not the 'Design Clever' loco.  I've managed to lose a smokebox dart, the chimney cap, a rear coupling, and, seriously, one of the rear buffers fell off!  It's also given some trouble with the rh piston coming out of the rear of the cylinder, which led to a spectacular somersault at low speed; the power of the loco impressed me but the fact that it flattened a Wills Grotty Hut privvy didn't, luckily there was no-one inside at the time...  These are in one respect minor QC issues that I have been easily able to fix (even the privvy came apart in parts and just needed putting back together) and not really much to lose sleep over.  But I don't get such issues with Bachmanns (except for a 3MT tank that was prone to dropping it's brake rodding until I glued it in) and it is annoying.  If QC is this lax, what else might slip through the net!  

 

Again, Hornby, a Collet 57' suburban brake third had to go back because detail was missing from the brake end, not in the box.  This was an annoying and unnecessary bother, a two bus trip across town to Lord & Butler for a replacement, and the fact it was tipping down with Welsh rain didn't endear me much to the process, and the buses were crowded so I had to stand up, it's all a conspiracy against me I tell you, it is...

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On 29/06/2020 at 11:46, PaulRhB said:

even laser scanning can struggle with detail and consequently the end result still has to be  adjusted by a human.

 

You don't just take a laser scan and squirt it into a cutter to make a mould. Most manufacturers take the scan data and do a CAD overlaid on this. The scan is a guide, not the full answer. There is always a human involved. 

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7 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

You don't just take a laser scan and squirt it into a cutter to make a mould. Most manufacturers take the scan data and do a CAD overlaid on this. The scan is a guide, not the full answer. There is always a human involved. 

No I agree, I really meant the interpretation of the scan needs the human adjusting rather than suggesting it’s a 3D photocopy :) The great detail on the 3D scan sessions by Bill of Rapido clearly showed its limitations and advantages but as they said in that topic they still aren’t copying the ripples in the metalwork so even where they gave that data they clean it up because of what the majority of the market expects and practical strength of the model materials. 

At the end of the day a human still decides how the computer compromises even in the scan itself as its due to the programming until AI becomes sentient ;) 

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