NCE power outage issue which baffles me!

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

hi there, 

 

i have joined this forum as it has so much valuable information on here, I am baffled by an issue I have and can't move forward with my layout until i resolve it, any help from you guys would be really helpful!.

 

i have a large layout under construction in my loft, it is DCC controlled and i have created a bus wire underneath.

 

ok, i recently upgraded my NCE SB5 to the new power pro 5 amp system and since then I have intermittent shorts on track 3 and 5 of my layout (i have 8 tracks) to be clear:

 

1. NCE SB5 no issues at all

2. i have tried 2 Power pros and both short intermittently 

3. i narrowed it down to track 3 and 5, all rest run ok

4. i have removed the BUS wire from my whole layout to help diagnose

5. i have adjusted the voltage downwards to no avail

6. i have no pins on track

7. i use Hornby points and have even replaced these all

8. i attach an image of my layout plan

9. i use a cobalt dc 5amp transformer (changed to this as thought AC was the issue)

10. the system cuts out intermittently, with no pattern but i have notices sometimes a voltage spike...

 

any help on this would be really helpful!!!

 

thank you so much in advance

 

Aaron

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Aaron, Yeeow! Please tell us which are tracks 3 and 5, so we don't have to trace every single route.

 

But if they are the tracks in dark blue (top left) and bright green (all over everywhere) both create reverse loops if my tracing is correct, and I didn't go cross eyed somewhere. Unless you have reversing loop modules installed to switch these, they could be the trouble. And if you do have reverse loop modules fitted it is possible they may need an upgrade to cope with the DCC system change. HTH

 

Oh, and welcome to the jungle.

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

hello! thanks for your response!,

 

track 3 is the dark green

track 5 is the purple

 

as far as i know they are not reverse loops... 

 

thanks for your welcome and i hope you can help!

 

Aaron

[brossard]

I don't know your experience level so apologies in advance if my questions are cheeky:

 

1)  Are there insulating rail joiners on the crossing rails of the turnouts?

2)  Are your turnouts DCC ready?

3) Are you switching crossing polarity via Cobalt contacts?

 

John

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, miclaaron@gmail.com said:

...as far as i know they are not reverse loops... 

I probably did go cross-eyed then...

Nothing else to suggest really, other than the simplest possible experiment of powering only the troublesome tracks, one at a time, to see if they are independently OK.

[Ray H]

Each of the "failing" circuits only appear to have a few points on them. Is it worth just powering each and changing one point/crossover at a time?

 

How random is random (time wise)? Is it possible to log each thing that you do on the layout, like change point A or reverse loco on track Z and see if there's a pattern the the failures by repeating the sequence noted and, possibly by dropping one thing each time? That way you may be able to discover that changing point Y three moves ago was actually what caused the failure (if you repeat the sequence with one of those moves removed each time).

 

Is there any link between what's actually running on the two failing circuits?

 

I'm not sure there's anything else you can do.

 

Can you amend the drawing to indicated where the track power feeds are?

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

7 hours ago, brossard said:

I don't know your experience level so apologies in advance if my questions are cheeky:

 

1)  Are there insulating rail joiners on the crossing rails of the turnouts?

2)  Are your turnouts DCC ready?

3) Are you switching crossing polarity via Cobalt contacts?

 

John

John,

 

thanks for your response, in answer to your questions. 1. these are insulated standard Hornby UK points 2. nope they are not live points, (unless switched to the live track) 3. sorry I am not that good, dont understand the question :-)

 

thanks so much for your input

 

Aaron

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

5 hours ago, Ray H said:

Each of the "failing" circuits only appear to have a few points on them. Is it worth just powering each and changing one point/crossover at a time?

 

How random is random (time wise)? Is it possible to log each thing that you do on the layout, like change point A or reverse loco on track Z and see if there's a pattern the the failures by repeating the sequence noted and, possibly by dropping one thing each time? That way you may be able to discover that changing point Y three moves ago was actually what caused the failure (if you repeat the sequence with one of those moves removed each time).

 

Is there any link between what's actually running on the two failing circuits?

 

I'm not sure there's anything else you can do.

 

Can you amend the drawing to indicated where the track power feeds are?

thanks Ray,

 

its not that i need to do anything, as soon as i power up the track (by plugging in the bus wire) it will cut out every now and then without me doing anything but just watching the now annoying flashing red light...its intermittent and strange, as it works fine on my old SB5...

 

i am really struggling here and thinking of going back to my old SB5 but concerned there is a danger on the track somewhere...

thanks again for your response

 

Aaron

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I probably did go cross-eyed then...

Nothing else to suggest really, other than the simplest possible experiment of powering only the troublesome tracks, one at a time, to see if they are independently OK.

thanks, just tried that, and hey it still cuts out :-)

 

short of separating the booster to a different power district i cannot think of doing anything

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

5 hours ago, Ray H said:

Each of the "failing" circuits only appear to have a few points on them. Is it worth just powering each and changing one point/crossover at a time?

 

How random is random (time wise)? Is it possible to log each thing that you do on the layout, like change point A or reverse loco on track Z and see if there's a pattern the the failures by repeating the sequence noted and, possibly by dropping one thing each time? That way you may be able to discover that changing point Y three moves ago was actually what caused the failure (if you repeat the sequence with one of those moves removed each time).

 

Is there any link between what's actually running on the two failing circuits?

 

I'm not sure there's anything else you can do.

 

Can you amend the drawing to indicated where the track power feeds are?

Ray, 

 

me again...

 

can you explain point number one you make, it sounds interesting? also the power feeds are throughout the track, however due to circumstance they are almost all unplugged until i resolve, on the failing tracks the feeder is just to the left of the 3 sets of points...

 

thanks again

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Nothing else to suggest really, other than the simplest possible experiment of powering only the troublesome tracks, one at a time, to see if they are independently OK.

 

6 minutes ago, miclaaron@gmail.com said:

thanks, just tried that, and hey it still cuts out...

So, it's the two tracks you identify as 3 and 5 that cause the 'cut outs' independently of anything else. Could be crossed over feeds, piece of metal lying across them, you haven't by any chance just ballasted them and stuck down the ballast with dilute PVA? (That last happened to me, there was enough current from 8m of newly ballasted track that the DCC system cut out.) Give it a good check over to ensure it is nothing like this.

 

Nothing? It's all set track right?

 

Take up all of the pieces of track 3 and 5, no short cuts, every single piece. And lay it all again, and don't reconnect it with any previous wiring, reconnecting it wholly with new wiring to the DCC system track output. And test each track as you complete it.

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

interesting.... i had this problem for a while and i then changed some stuff and actually ballasted a short amount of track that was going to go under a tunnel...how would this effect the current, how to i fix it....

 

naturally i dont like your second point hahahaha

9 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

So, it's the two tracks you identify as 3 and 5 that cause the 'cut outs' independently of anything else. Could be crossed over feeds, piece of metal lying across them, you haven't by any chance just ballasted them and stuck down the ballast with dilute PVA? (That last happened to me, there was enough current from 8m of newly ballasted track that the DCC system cut out.) Give it a good check over to ensure it is nothing like this.

 

Nothing? It's all set track right?

 

Take up all of the pieces of track 3 and 5, no short cuts, every single piece. And lay it all again, and don't reconnect it with any previous wiring, reconnecting it wholly with new wiring to the DCC system track output. And test each track as you complete it.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

18 hours ago, miclaaron@gmail.com said:

...naturally i dont like your second point hahahaha

The question then becomes do you really want to fix it? I would, and sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and do the necessary.

 

As for ballasting with PVA, once it has set and the water has evaporated, no more conduction; the problem just goes away in short.

[Ray H]

Can you change back to the SB5 - and make that the only change? If the problem occurs randomly when nothing has been done it should do so with the SB5 connected instead of the Power Pro.

 

If it doesn't it seems as though there is an interface problem with the Power Pro and the layout.

 

How is the layout split into Power Districts (if you have any) and what short circuit protection are you using?

 

What benefits did you expect to gain from the 5 amp PowerPro over and above the 5 amp SB5?

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

1 hour ago, Ray H said:

thanks Ray, gonna answer you in red

 

Can you change back to the SB5 - and make that the only change? If the problem occurs randomly when nothing has been done it should do so with the SB5 connected instead of the Power Pro.

i'm strongly thinking of this... it seems to work with the SB5

If it doesn't it seems as though there is an interface problem with the Power Pro and the layout.

i have tried it with 2 power pro's...

How is the layout split into Power Districts (if you have any) and what short circuit protection are you using?

its currently all on one district, i am not using short circut protection as was advised its not needed in the UK? if yes how will it help?

What benefits did you expect to gain from the 5 amp PowerPro over and above the 5 amp SB5?

its just new and it has a dedicated program track, what is the actual difference?

please i would appreciate your advice! just concerned that the powerpro is finding a fault which the SB5 isnt and that could be dangerous long term...

 

thanks 

Aaron

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

5 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The question then becomes do you really want to fix it? I would, and sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and do the necessary.

 

As for ballasting with PVA, once it has set and the water has evaporated, no more conduction; the problem just goes away in short.

 

thanks, so it was a while back so it shouldnt make a difference... will use option 1 as a last resort!

 

i must be missing the obvious?

[Ray H]

Aaron

 

Sorry for all the questions but we're all trying to work out what could be wrong if all you have changed is the SB5 to a PowerPro and have tried two different PowerPros. Alas we can't physically get to the layout to try to help you so we have to ask the questions.

 

You've said that it worked with the SB5 and the only thing that you did differently was to swap the SB5 for a PowerPro, nothing else. You have also said that you have tried two different PowerPros and both exhibit the same problem. Can you confirm that all you did when changing to a different unit was to remove the track power connections from one unit and transfer those connections to other unit? Do you have a rough idea how many times you swapped command stations?

 

Power Districts would help in a small way currently to allow you to isolate particular tracks and continue using the others when there is a problem, Short circuit protection would help avoid problems with the supply units if you have a (long lasting) problem. Some/most? DCC command stations have short circuit protection built in but I believe that some NCE kit - possibly the stand alone PowerCab - have been known to fail if a short circuit isn't rectified as quickly as possible.

 

Do you have an accessory bus that is separated from the track power bus such that it can be disconnected or given its own short circuit protection?

 

Does your track power supply from the command station go to a common place from whence you take off connections to your various circuits. This arrangement would almost certainly help in identifying problem areas and help you reach a speedier resolution. You could then divide the layout into a number of Power Districts at that point - perhaps two or three circuits to each district. Giving each circuit its own short circuit protection would further help to limit the keep the majority of the layout running.

 

Can you confirm that you can power up the layout with the PowerPro connected and having no locos on any track and no accessories using track power?

 

Do you swap locos between track circuits or do you always keep the same locos on the same circuits?

[BromsMods]

Can I suggest that, before you go any further with problem finding on the layout, you connect the PowerPro to a completely separate piece of track, not attached to the layout and then try controlling a loco? This will rule out any problem with the PowerPro, provided you have made the required connections correctly.

[F-UnitMad]

I'd like to see some photos of this amazing layout. Can't get my head around the different levels from just a trackplan. I'm also intrigued to know how you reach the track in the corners, especially as it's in the loft.

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

13 hours ago, Ray H said:

Hi Again Ray

thanks for you indepth response, i have gone through it and please see my responses in RED

13 hours ago, Ray H said:

Aaron

 

Sorry for all the questions but we're all trying to work out what could be wrong if all you have changed is the SB5 to a PowerPro and have tried two different PowerPros. Alas we can't physically get to the layout to try to help you so we have to ask the questions.

i live in the manchester area? after the removals of restrictions it would be great if someone with knowledge can come round!

13 hours ago, Ray H said:

You've said that it worked with the SB5 and the only thing that you did differently was to swap the SB5 for a PowerPro, nothing else. You have also said that you have tried two different PowerPros and both exhibit the same problem. Can you confirm that all you did when changing to a different unit was to remove the track power connections from one unit and transfer those connections to other unit? Do you have a rough idea how many times you swapped command stations?

yes, I just moved the 2 wires to the powerpro from the SB5 and thats it! i have made the move around 3 times now to see the difference!

Power Districts would help in a small way currently to allow you to isolate particular tracks and continue using the others when there is a problem, Short circuit protection would help avoid problems with the supply units if you have a (long lasting) problem. Some/most? DCC command stations have short circuit protection built in but I believe that some NCE kit - possibly the stand alone PowerCab - have been known to fail if a short circuit isn't rectified as quickly as possible.

what would happen if i switch points to a different power district would the electricity cause a short circuit. in the UK what short circuit protection do you recommend?  

Do you have an accessory bus that is separated from the track power bus such that it can be disconnected or given its own short circuit protection?

i haven't set up the accessories yet.

Does your track power supply from the command station go to a common place from whence you take off connections to your various circuits. This arrangement would almost certainly help in identifying problem areas and help you reach a speedier resolution. You could then divide the layout into a number of Power Districts at that point - perhaps two or three circuits to each district. Giving each circuit its own short circuit protection would further help to limit the keep the majority of the layout running.

i have a bus running under the layout directly under the track, however i have disconnected all after i had the problem and only discovered the issue tracks when i started plugging it back in one by one

Can you confirm that you can power up the layout with the PowerPro connected and having no locos on any track and no accessories using track power?

yes even with nothing running, its still cuts out intermittently... i tried breaking the link of the track to see if it helps however the voltage spiked on the end of the track does this make sense?

Do you swap locos between track circuits or do you always keep the same locos on the same circuits?

i swap them- (its still new)

 

[miclaaron@gmail.com]

8 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I'd like to see some photos of this amazing layout. Can't get my head around the different levels from just a trackplan. I'm also intrigued to know how you reach the track in the corners, especially as it's in the loft.

only done 2 out of 3 layers...now i have stopped until i get this fixed!!! so annoying! enjoy

10 hours ago, BromsMods said:

Can I suggest that, before you go any further with problem finding on the layout, you connect the PowerPro to a completely separate piece of track, not attached to the layout and then try controlling a loco? This will rule out any problem with the PowerPro, provided you have made the required connections correctly.

yes this works fine.... it seems my powerpro isnt liking my track layout....

[F-UnitMad]

From what I can make out, the track laid out in reality doesn't entirely match the trackplan; I can see a diamond crossing in the photo that I can't see on the plan.

The rear loops at the top aren't in focus enough to check, but are you absolutely certain you haven't inadvertently created a return loop up there with the crossovers?

Still intrigued about how on earth you reach the far corners, or how you intend to reach them once they're covered in scenery.

[BromsMods]

9 hours ago, miclaaron@gmail.com said:

 

yes this works fine.... it seems my powerpro isnt liking my track layout....

 

 

In that case you definitely need to install some circuit breakers, not only to help with fault finding but also to help protect the considerable investment you have already made, not least of which is the command station.

[Ray H]

Please don't take this the wrong way but there appear to be a lot of extraneous items dotted around the baseboard. I'd recommend clearing everything off any area with track on where the track's connected to the powered part of the layout. I'd also suggest that it might be an idea to run a vacuum cleaner over all the track in case there's an odd track pin (or two) unintentionally causing a short.

 

It might also be worth connecting the PowerPro and then going around the whole layout at all levels giving each board or section thereof a good thump to see if the short circuit appears again.

 

NCE sell their EB-1 for short circuit protection. MERG an electronics group based in the UK also sell a (self assembly) kit - they also have numerous other kits but you need to be a member to be able to purchase them. I'm sure there are other makes on the market. There are some DiY suggestions as well which don't involve too much expense - an Internet search will bring up some of them.

 

What do you do when a short circuit occurs - how do you clear it?

 

What do you do in the railway room between switching on the PowerPro initially and the short circuit occurring? I'm beginning to think that you must have a metallic item lying on the track somewhere that is disturbed from time to time by whatever you're doing in the room and (just) maybe the reason why it didn't occur with the SB5 is because it wasn't lying around when you had the SB5.

 

An advantage of short circuit protection fitted with an audible device is that the device sounds the moment the short circuit occurs so you can relate what you were doing at that moment in time, for example installing a point. You can then undo what you just did and see if the "alarm" sounds when you repeat the process. Audible devices also avoid the need for you to keep an eye on the circuit all the time waiting for the short to occur.

 

Random faults can take ages to track down so don't give up hope.

[RedgateModels]

1 hour ago, Ray H said:

 

 

An advantage of short circuit protection fitted with an audible device is that the device sounds the moment the short circuit occurs so you can relate what you were doing at that moment in time, for example installing a point. You can then undo what you just did and see if the "alarm" sounds when you repeat the process. Audible devices also avoid the need for you to keep an eye on the circuit all the time waiting for the short to occur.

 

Random faults can take ages to track down so don't give up hope.

 

I agree with this, on my current layout I'm using Peco OO-9 narrow gauge turnouts with the spring removed being operated by servos. A microswitch does the frog switching. I got a "beep" from the MERG DCO when operating the turnout. Basically the switch was operating before the blades had moved from the stock rail. A quick tweak of the microswitch lever and all sorted.